Single phase-double set triggers

I have asked this question before and received some great answers, but unfortunately none of them seem to address my problem. I have a 1840's Joseph Gibbins percussion rifle with a Joseph Goulcher lock. The lock has no half cock notch, and there is a single phase-double set trigger. The rear trigger must be set in order to fire the gun with the front trigger. My issue is the problem of lowering the hammer from full cock without firing the gun. I have tried "catching the hammer before it hits the nipple, but this is very dangerous. De-capping the nipple is not an option, as it still doesn't solve the problem, but does prevent an AD. In the interim, I have made a nipple cover out of a .380 center-fire pistol case to stop the hammer upon tripping.
Any of you lock smiths or gun tinkerers know of a way to lower the hammer from full cock without firing the gun?

Yeah, replace the trigger.
However made the gun must have designed it as a bench or match shooting gun.

I am not an expert in such matters, in fact since I can not fully understand what your problem is, I must be a total dufus. But I would like to help you!

My guess is the reason it does not have a half cock notch is the result of the set triggers. It is my understanding that a fly is needed on the tumbler to allow the sear to pass the half cock notch. The fly in essence "removes" the half cock notch for all locks. So This is where my confusion is. To un-cock the rifle one must simply hold the hammer, pull it back ever so slightly and pull the trigger, then gently lower the hammer. From my experience the set trigger has nothing to do with your problem. You would have to go through the same process regardless of triggers. the fly does not allow other locks to stop at the half cock notch so you must let the hammer all the way down.

Again forgive me if I am misunderstanding the problem.

Pictures would help me better!

I would hate to mess with an original gun but if you "can't" shoot it safely it is worth doing.

Good Luck!

jrmflintlock,
The tumbler on Fyrsty's gun does not have a half cock notch. With no notch there is no need to have a fly. The fly allows up travel, (between 1/2 and full) but will not let the sear fall into 1/2 cock on down travel. A single (not set) trigger does not need a fly as it is slow, where as a set trigger snaps the sear faster and can cause it to fall into the half cock notch.
Flintlocklar :wink:

Believe me I have tried to hold the hammer back and release the front trigger, but the gun stays cocked. I can put my finger over the nipple and pull the front set trigger to stop the hammer from hitting the nipple, but I got to say the hammer falls quite smartly and leaves a bruise. I think one of the other responders hit it right that the gun was made as a bench or target gun. It does have a heavy barrel, but surely there was a way to lower the hammer from full cock without firing the gun.

As Larry pointed out the "set trigger" snaps very fast and makes it difficult or impossible to simply pull the trigger and lower the hammer. Replacing the single-phase double set trigger assembly with a double phase set trigger assembly would fix the problem. The set trigger would still operate even though there is no fly on the tumbler because it has no half-cock notch. The front trigger will engage the sear and allow for lowering the hammer without firing the gun (or dry-firing with possible nipple damage)

Fyrstyk said:

Believe me I have tried to hold the hammer back and release the front trigger, but the gun stays cocked.

Click to expand...

The front trigger won't "fire"...release the hammer... unless it is set.

With the gun at full cock set the rear trigger.

Hold on to the hammer firmly. Really firmly.

Pull the front trigger and the hammer will release and start to fall. Don't let it.

Lower the hammer.

Spence

Right! I understand the function of the fly, That was why I was confused as to why the trigger had anything to do with the fact that there was no half cock.

I also understand that a single trigger holds the sear bar out of the way long enough for the hammer to get passed the half cock notch.

What I am having trouble visualizing is how come the trigger will engage the sear bar to shoot but not to let the hammer down.

Very interesting problem. :hmm: I'm eager to find a solution.

What Spence said makes perfect sense as far as a solution, but there must be something more to it. Most of My rifles have set triggers, but they all will engage the sear bar enough to let the hammer down.

I do see where changing to a single trigger would solve the problem.

You could try holding the hammer at full cock and tripping the set trigger. The sear will bounce out then into the tumbler and still be engaged, at that point press forward on the rear trigger while holding the hammer to release the sear and lower the hammer. If you cock the lock and don’t set the trigger merely hold the hammer and press forward on the rear trigger to release the sear and lower the hammer.

There seems to be a basic misunderstanding of the function of set triggers, here.

The rear trigger on a single phase trigger is the one which actually fires the gun, and when you set it all you are doing is compressing the spring and locking the set trigger in position.

The "firing" trigger has nothing to do with tripping the sear and firing the gun, its only function is to release the "set" trigger so it can do that.

This might help:
http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/triggerterm.html

Spence

curator said:

As Larry pointed out the "set trigger" snaps very fast and makes it difficult or impossible to simply pull the trigger and lower the hammer. Replacing the single-phase double set trigger assembly with a double phase set trigger assembly would fix the problem. The set trigger would still operate even though there is no fly on the tumbler because it has no half-cock notch. The front trigger will engage the sear and allow for lowering the hammer without firing the gun (or dry-firing with possible nipple damage)

Click to expand...

BINGO!

My first and second guns have single phase set triggers. I've been using them without a single problem for 45 years. The idea of having to replace the trigger in order to be able to let the %^&*%% hammer down is ridiculous.

It can be very difficult to solve a problem is you don't know how things work.

Dance with the one who brung you.

Spence

This is a single phase double set trigger made by J Fehr of Nazareth, PA in about 1837. As you can see, there is only the one lever. The front trigger will release it to trip the sear. To lower the hammer, the front trigger has to release the set lever as the hammer is held back. While the set lever is released, the rear trigger is pushed forward to prevent the sear from reengaging the full cock notch while the hammer is gently lowered. No need to replace the triggers once it is understood how the triggers work.

In response to Grenadier 1758, your picture of the trigger arrangement looks similar to what I have. I will give your method a try to see if it works.

Thanks to all for your comments and suggestions for this most perplexing problem.

1758, good photo. As can be seen the rear trigger trips the sear. In some cases it merely slaps the sear in other cases the trigger bar will bare on the sear and must be set in order to allow the lock to be brought to full cock. When the trigger bar merely slaps the sear the lock can be cocked with out the trigger being set. In this case pushing forward on the rear trigger will allow the hammer to be lowered. Fyrstyk has the type that must be set for the lock to be cocked and could be adjusted by a smith that understands that this adjustment doesn’t require damaging or replacing the triggers.

George hit the nail on the head.

Assuming the rear trigger is "set" and the gun is cocked, put your thumb on the hammer spur or cock.

Do not apply any strong rearward pressure but be ready for the hammer to start to fall.
Applying a strong pressure that actually moves the hammer rearward will cause the sear to be moved out of the full cock notch and then move right back into it when the rear set trigger is released.

Pull the front trigger, releasing the rear set trigger. The hammer will start to move forward/downward but your thumb should be ready to stop its movement while allowing it to move slightly forward/downward. Don't forget to allow this slightly forward/downward movement because this is what allows the full cock notch to rotate to a point where the sear can no longer engage it.
Now, lower the hammer gently to the fired position.

Thank you Gentlemen!!

Now I fully Understand! I have never used that type of set trigger.

And the picture helps immensely!!

George said:

Dance with the one who brung you.

Click to expand...

I hear ya, a palm over that stock, lock an hammer, held just so, hold back a bit on the lock spring, then trip that trigger,, a feller should be able to feel the release point.
It might take a few times or better to get the feel of it just right,,
(maybe that trip spring is a bit tight?)
No disrespect to the OP.
,, but we live in a world where folks are afraid to even take a lock out of a gun to oil the insides,, let alone take a trigger out to see how it works, maybe put a drop or two of oil on that and adjust it. (it's got screws ya know)
The OP can't get the grift of it,, so,, change the trigger. Then we might have to drill a hole in the new trigger plate or even have to cut it to fit and tap the holes,, whatta ya do?

Trouble is when I talk like that, I always get people upset.

It's always a problem on the forums, when someone is listening to 16 other people.
There is no one way to fix it,, there's 4 different ways that'll work, and 12 ways that won't work.
But there's still 16 ways.

Zonie, is right on. The secret is to hold the hammer, and not push it back. Then be ready to grab the hammer.

Point it in a safe direction. I use a faucet washer to dry fire. I would not consider a faucet washer, as a safety. However if the gun is pointed in a safe direction, the washer "might" stop it from firing, but I would not bet my life on it.