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Thick patch/smaller ball or visa versa?

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Skychief

69 Cal.
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I posted this following question in the smoothbore section a couple years ago.

For best accuracy, which do you find works better...a thicker patch with a smaller ball, or, a thinner patch with a larger ball?

This time I'm asking as it relates to rifles.

Interested in loads which don't require a sledge hammer to seat.

What say you? Which combination yields better accuracy from your rifle(s)?

Best regards, Skychief
 
To elaborate more, on what Britsmoothy mentions, he likes to use some sort of barrier, between the patched ball and the powder. This is sometimes a very good way to get good accuracy, if one has a not that deeply rifled barrel, and thus has a thinner patch. You can use a felt disc, you can use a bit of hornet's nest (tends to be naturally flame retardant), you can use tow or a wad of paper, or you can use 10 or so grains of cornmeal, grits, cream o' wheat..., measured with a powder measure by volume.

The last option is often used by folks loading up lower powered, black powder cartridge loads, to avoid any "air gap" between a light load of black powder and a light slug. So for say a 15 grain BP load in a .45 Colt cartridge, loaded with a 180 grain .451 slug, some folks add 10-20 grains of cornmeal or grits, on top of the powder so filling the space between the powder and the base of the slug. Now in a ML rifle this is done to create a flame barrier, that because of it's granular state...the grits or cornmeal conform to the lands and grooves as it rests between the powder and the ball, and when fired, blocks the fire from burning the patch.

The burned patch, in our case, being what needs to be avoided.


LD
 
I agree with Walks with fire. I have found that the tightest ball fit with a thin patch gives me the best accuracy. Groove depth is important. Most of my guns are deep grooved round ball barrels with slow twists.
 
I agree with that too. The deeper the grooves the thicker The patch and vicey versey.

My guns are mostly TC, Lyman and GM barrels and seem to favor a ball .005 under with a .015 to .018 patch.
 
I've had extremely good luck in my .50 cals. (T/C Renegade and now a Great Plains Rifle) using a .490 ball and .015 linen or .018 ticking patch and TOW mink oil as a lube. It's tight but you don't have to pound the ball and patch to get them loaded. I always use a short starter to make the loading job easier. When I'm bench shooting, I swab between shots for consistency and it makes loading easier.
 
Having gone through this in trying to determine the most accurate RB diameter & patch thickness for 2 rifles last summer, all I can say is "it depends." I.e., theory & practice aren't the same and won't necessarily lead to predicted results. In short, the larger ball - tightest patch (the combination that requires a mallet to start and a steel range rod to seat) didn't give me the smallest groups in either rifle. In my .50cal. Lyman GPR caplock, for example, I found that a Lee .495" RB (.497" in fact) + .014" compressed pillow ticking patch gave virtually the same results as a RCBS .490" (.492" in fact) + .021" compressed duck (?) cloth patch. Both were difficult to start and ram home, but neither destroyed patches. OTOH, a Lyman .490" (.488" in fact) + .018" compressed pillow ticking patch loaded easily (great for hunting & woods walks where you don't want to hold up everyone else), was almost as accurate, and neither destroyed the patches nor fouled the bbl. anymore than the "tight" loads. The other rifle, a Waksupi-built .54cal. Chambers Isaac Haines showed the same tendency.

Btw, the load was 60gr. FFFg with patches wetted with 1 Ballistol : 6 H20.
 
All I can say is that I mostly use ball .010" under bore diameter. I use the thickest, toughest patch material, which for me is cotton canvas duck or denim, that gives a tight load but one that can be seated safely with the rifles wood rod. In certain rifles/applications or with a .005" undersize ball, a slightly thinner patch such as mattress ticking or the even thinner pillow ticking will be used.
 
If the second Tuesday of a month falls on the dark of the moon then you need small ball, thick patch. On the other hand if the second Tuesday is in the light of the moon the opposite is true. Provided your using a grease as a lube such as mink oil or lard. On the other hand should you use an oil all the above is reversed, unless it’s winter in an even numbered year or your name ends in a odd numbered letter and you were born in an even numbered year.
Should all these rules seem to be hard to follow you can just get different combos and give it a try. Two guns that look the same can function differently from load to load and even from shooter to shooter. It’s a horror but you just have to spend time at the range to find what works best for you. It’s a horror but you just have to get out to the range :wink:
 
:thumbsup: :bow: :bow:
The lube should be toad sweat, cat snot and possum squeezins,(if it's a female possum the squeezins should ferment 3 days)
but that only works if the barrel has been layed in a south moving stream on a blue moon overnight,
(clean as usual)

Then take the combination with assorted thickness of cloth for patch to the range and experiment.
Make notes on each target of the changes made.
Review the results.
Then go to the range again and repeat the experiment.
Review the results.

aka; There is no magic answer Skychief.
I have found tight fabric with dryish lube combinations to provide more accuracy.
Do I need a hammer to drive the combo down the bore? No.
Does the combo just slide down with a single stroke of the ramrod? No.

Again, describe what you want/need for "accuracy"
 
Then throw in a couple of kickers, high humidity days will shoot different then low. 2 f may work better with one combo and three f with another. A cold barrel might shoot different then a hot one. So your most accurate load on a gun shot one shot on a hunt when the gun is cold might not be your most accurate load at the range where your shooting a string of shots.
Fermented Opossum squeezing not withstanding.
 
necchi said:
Skychief said:
.For best accuracy,
Define that, for you.
What is accurate,, for you?

Sure. "For best accuracy"~the load (for this discussion, thick patch/smaller ball vs. thin patch/larger ball) which has the greatest potential of shooting the tightest groups from a rifled barrel (all other variables be darned).

Accurate, for me, are loads that shoot tighter groups than most any other loads.

Thanks necchi. :thumbsup:
 
That doesn't answer my question.
Some people are happy with a group in the 10 ring, some folks are happy hitting a pop can.
Other's want one hole in the X.

Most of those folks that want the one hole thing, tune their rifle combination variables so no other thing changes the rifle and load,, then spend hours on the range tuning the biggest variable,, the shooter.

You can't have the best load for the rifle if you don't want to do any one or any single part of the combination that makes the rifle combination it's mechanical best like saying
"Interested in loads which don't require a sledge hammer to seat."
Ok, I'll give you that's extreme,, but if you want easy loading,, your not going to get the best possible from your rifle.
Will it be accurate,, yes very likley if your not after one hole in the X.
Therefore, what a persons desired and defined "accuracy" is,, is subjective.
 
Skychief said:
tenngun, should a guy do any chanting while casting balls for accurate shooting too? :hmm: :haha: :haha: :haha:

Best regards, Skychief

In all seriousness, the answer is yes!

It doesn't matter what the chant is, but you want the chant to be long enough for the cooling lead to draw in from the sprue plate and prevent voids under the sprue. So, whether you say, " Make this ball perfect" three times or whatever you want to chant, make sure that all the liquid lead has cooled and has been drawn into the mold.
 
"best accuracy"
and "no sledge hammer" is an oxymoronic approach.
Serious 'X' hunters will use a large, often oversized, ball and hammer it down. I used to do that with a .457" ball, denim patching in a .45 cal. Douglas barrel. Gave great accuracy but hauling that sledge hammer around in the woods was not practical. Now, using a .440" ball and ticking patch cloth I get 'X' accuracy at 50 yards and only slightly larger at 100 yards. Do wat works best for you.
 
I shoot mostly smoothies now and am happy with a 4” group at fifty yards. That’s poor rifle accuracy but it will put venison on the table. In fact if you keep your ranges in fifty yards that will be fine for a rifle when hunting.
Should you go to a primitive shoot and do a woods walk that would put you in the competition. So best accuracy is a relitive thing.
Shooting V and blade at a four inch bull from a rest I don’t think I could hold on an x, at a hundred yards my gun can shoot better then I can see.
 
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