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Sight picture, Brown Bess

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SgtErv

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Hello all,

Been hemming and hawing over getting a hunting smoothbore, but I have a Bess. Seems to me what I really need to do is get proficient with it.

A friend of mine swears up and down that Brown Besses generally shoot high, so you should aim underneath the target. I kind of know what he’s driving at, but I wondered if anyone had a good explanation for what you’ll see looking down the barrel when you’re aiming at, say, a six inch circle on a paper plate at 25 yards.

What I’d like to get most proficient with is shot. (#7 with wads and cards).

Someone had a photo of a Bess sight picture, but I can’t find it.

Thank you all, and I hope everyone has been well.
 
I am afraid that I can't tell you what your sight picture should be. In my reenacting unit, we have about 15 Brown Bess muskets. Some are Pedersolis, some are Japanese Miroukus, Loyalist Arms, Middlesex, and at one time a Narranganset Arms. Each one required a different sight picture.

The first step is to determine a consistent cheek to stock hold so you can see the slot in the tang screw, the barrel, and the bayonet lug. You need to remember exactly how your jaw, teeth and cheek bone meet the stock with respect to your hand hold at the wrist and do that every time to have the identical sight picture for each shot. You need to place the butt plate in the same area of your shoulder every time you mount the Bess for aiming and firing. You can practice mounting your Bess (or fowler or fusil de chasse, or Charleville) to the ready to fire stance at home much like dry fire practice.

Most aligned the bayonet lug with the slot in the tang bolt. Then it would be the right or left edge of the slot to get horizontal alignment. Lastly, it becomes how much of the bayonet lug is to be seen and do you want the lug to cover the target or hold slightly under?

It takes range time and I find I am still learning my sight picture. Most of my shooting is with an undersized ball still wrapped in a paper cartridge.

For load development, you need to know your bore diameter. Use a ball 0.010" to 0.020" under bore diameter. Try an oil lubricated patch of thickness equal to the difference between the bore and ball. You want to compress the patch. Lubricated paper can be used as well. Lubricated paper wrapping to take the over all diameter to bore size should be sufficient.

All goes well for me then the unit supplies paper wrapped 0.700 or 0.690 diameter balls propelled by Jack's Battle Powder and all pretense at accuracy flies all over the range. Then its the consistent cheek weld, bayonet lug aligned with the center of the tang slot and the top of the lug on he target from 25 to 50 yards.

You can get pretty accurate loads with consistent diameter balls and good patching. Don't overlook the use of over powder cards and tow wadding. Some folks prefer the bare ball with wadding to patched loads.
 
I find on fowlers with a wide breech where the barrel tapers to above bore size at the muzzle to shoot ”˜down hill’ for me. To me you need to ”˜see barrel’ as you sight down it.

What I do is visualize that a pencil or piece of dowel lies across & on top of the breech and the front sight sits on top of that. Works for me.

I’ll add to that, that I have bent 3 flint smoothie barrels so far and am very glad I have, to get the point of imlact to match my intended point of aim. Howver your load MUST be well developed by this point!

I did the 1st one like a science project w/ V-blocks, index/datum marks, ratchet clamps and measuring tools. The later 2 barrels I just pulled out of the stock and winged it ... and got what I needed and never had to readjust.
 
Hey my friend,
Do you want to get proficient with the Bess at harvesting game, or do you want to get proficient with harvesting it in a fully traditional manner with a Bess?

Britsmoothy, our British friend from our forum who hunts quite a lot with black powder smoothbores, reports that with shot, his Bess takes a lot of lead. I can tell you that the Bess is Cylinder Bore, has abosolutely no choke, so you're talking 25 yards or less.

Now as for taking a deer, well you need to remember that for the soldier "firing at marks", his future target would be a man, a verticle target standing n a rank, so shooting a bit high or low, didn't matter. But for a deer, as you will probably want to take one that is nearly broadside to you...high or low will matter as much as right and left.

So you will see on some of the "Original Bess" a groove in the tang, that many think is for aid in aiming. (The above example has two oddities, a round thumb escutcheon and an odd sideplate, and I think this is a private contract Bess). You can see something similar in this Post AWI 3rd Model , but I wonder if that's for aiming or for alignment of the breech plug? IF it's for the breech plug, why not have it on the underside of the barrel?

So that's a documented possibility. An undocumented possibility is to unscrew the tang bolt, put a washer on it that rests under the screw-head, and then return the tang bolt so that the bolt sticks up a bit, and you use the screw-driver groove as a slot to align the bayonet lug. You have to index the groove paralel to the barrel.

:idunno:

Now the easiest non-traditional way that I know of is to get a brass 3/4" corner brace and put that under the tang bolt. The upper portion gives you a sort of "ghost ring" rear sight. If that's too high or too crude, or just doesn't center your shots, the brass is soft enought to easily cut it down and make a more conventional, rear sight arrangement, AND you can easily remove it when hunting season is over and you want to reenact.

LD
 
My Bess is a very early Pedersoli with the shorter "carbine" barrel, though I can't recall the length off the top of my head. My recollection is that it's down in the 28"-32" range.

In any case I shoot a lot of shot through it and only limited round ball. Center of pattern and POI for ball are virtually identical at 25 yards.

I started by closing my eyes and mounting the Bess, then opening my eyes to see where the "sights" lined up. Must be a perfect fit for me because doing that resulted in the breech cutting the bayonet lug in half. That's my sight picture with both shot and ball.

As for "range" with shot, I'm using 120 grains of 1F Goex with the same measure for shot (1 5/8 oz.)
Works great for me and using equal volumes of 1f and shot produces much smoother patterns than the old standard of using 2f with a little less volume of powder than shot. Because my patterns are so smooth and regular, it actually works out to be more of a 30 yard duck gun than the standard 25 yards you hear for most CYL muzzleloaders. My standard shot for ducks is #4 and I use #6 for ptarmigan and snowshoe hare. Only the game seems to know the difference because my short Bess likes them equally well.

BTW- I'm also using 1f in that big old pan. Fine performance.
 
My advice is the oft used suggestion that you just shoot it and find out for yourself. Not a bad suggestion as I believe the BB is mostest funnest gun to shoot ever made. With mine, there were days I could actually hit what I (sorta) aimed at. Won a few matches with it but lost a lot more. One time I even hunted quail with it and was the only hunter to come home with birds. The others were using modern shotguns. BTW, I didn't need as much lead with it as I do with my 31" barreled 20 ga. fowler. Yep, contrary to wat one would think. :hmm:
 
Besses are meant to be pointed, not aimed. If you try and use the bayonet lug as a sight it will likely shoot high.

Shoot it like you would a shotgun at a bird. Both eyes open, focused on the center of the target.
 
Thanks a bunch everyone. When the ground dries out a little it’s the first one I’m taking out. I took some notes. Figure I’ll do my best to ignore the bayonet lug. I grew up as a rifle shooter, so don’t have any good shotgun habits ingrained. You guys did well in explaining a few of them .

I’d like to stay as traditional as possible. I’ll use wads and cards just because it seems ethical to maximize efficiency to kill game.

The Bess will take more dry firing, too, I’d imagine. I think that might be my biggest problem. The trigger pull is extremely heavy - spoiled by a good rifle gun.

Truly appreciate the enthusiasm with which you guys share detailed knowledge. Lots of years of know-how on this forum, and it’s gotten me to be a better shot and more proficient in general.

One tidbit I’ll share, way off topic...Just from reading in here and practicing I placed second in our unit’s woods walk. It was raining the whole time. Not only did I shoot well, I didn’t have a single misfire! Didn’t do anything special, just my normal routine. It was a pretty cool feeling to know a weapon that well. (The guy who won ”˜bout never loses a match, so I did well haha)
 
Besses are meant to be pointed, not aimed

Truly?

"..., loading and firing in different attitudes at marks, and marching with remarkable rapidity, are the particular Exercises, to which these Companies [light infantry] should be trained,...

"The general yearly allowance of Ball to a Regiment, when not in Service, being only four to each Man, the insufficiency of that number, for frequently practicing the Companies in firing at marks, must be very obvious; it will therefore be absolutely necessary, ..., that molds and lead be provided for the Companies, in order to craft additional quantity; ...,


"..., The Company, which in the course of the day's performance, drives the greatest number of balls through its target (one of which must be provided for each) should be distinguished, until the next monthly practice, by a little tuft of scarlet worsted worn above the cockade. "
Cuthbertson 1776

:hmm:

LD
 
Once you get your personal sight picture in your head, practice often. But, also start to practice shooting roundball in the other contorted positions we find ourselves in when deer hunting. While much shotgunning, and thus no rear sight shooting, is done standing erect in roughly the same position, we know that is not always (rarely?) the case shooting at deer and turkeys. Any other contortions of you body can/Will change the relationship of your eye to the barrel and target. Thicker winter clothes may change this as well. How much effect this has seems to very from shooter to shooter. Shoot often, and once dialed in, challenge yourself and practice from the positions you most often hunt from.
 
The biggest issue I have hunting small stationary game with my Bess is due to although reliable lock, slow large lock, me flinching enough to pull the gun way off!

I have to really drill my self to hold still!

B.
 
When I competed in the mid late 70's with a Brown Bess, it was the 30 1/2 inch barrel version. I used the front sight and it shot .735 balls very accurately.

However, I don't know how using the front sight would work for the full length Pedersoli Musket and round ball or shot.

Further as you mentioned, the typical heavy trigger pull weight is difficult to get used to using. Do you know anyone in your area who can do a good trigger job for you?

Further, I think you mentioned that you are using what I consider to be too small a diameter ball in your Bess to get good accuracy. I would strongly suggest you seriously consider getting a .735" mold or at least some balls in that size to try for better accuracy in your Bess and use thick/lubed ticking material for the patch.

However, you might also try the load that George talks about where he puts a card over the powder, then a fiber wad, then the patched round ball. (Spence, if I messed that up, my apology.)

Bottom line, you will need to do more load development on paper targets with both the round ball and shot load to see where the ball/shot hit depending on the sight picture you use.

Gus
 
I found the .735 to be really difficult to load with a paper cartridge, even when the cartridge was made of thin newsprint. I have not tried wads, cards, and ball though. I want to say the bore was a hair under .75. Maybe I should even try .725.

What I’d really like to improve is the shot load. I’ll always deer hunt with rifle gun - I’m just a really good shot with it. I’ll utilize the smoothbore for small game.

Even just pointing, have to know what the barrel/bayonet lug looks like in relation to the target to know where to point it, right?

Plan is, next range trip, to draw a graphic of the sight picture (tang, lug, barrel) on each target ,keeping same point of aim (like six o’clock on a 4 in circle). It’ll show me point of impact in relation to what I see looking down it. A lot of thinking on this hadme thibking it might be sort of different for everyone.

Trigger job - might be able to talk to the Fort director. I’m bringing it in so he can help me drill the touch hole out a size bigger. He’s a good builder, but I’m not sure that he gets in the guts of the lock ever.

Thanks y’all!

Now I just need a dry day
 
Stumpkiller said:
Besses are meant to be pointed, not aimed. If you try and use the bayonet lug as a sight it will likely shoot high.

Shoot it like you would a shotgun at a bird. Both eyes open, focused on the center of the target.

When I built mine (from a Navy Arms kit) I took off the lug front sight and soldered on a blade. Doesn't look right for the hc/pc thing but I like for shooting.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
Stumpkiller said:
Besses are meant to be pointed, not aimed. If you try and use the bayonet lug as a sight it will likely shoot high.

Shoot it like you would a shotgun at a bird. Both eyes open, focused on the center of the target.

When I built mine (from a Navy Arms kit) I took off the lug front sight and soldered on a blade. Doesn't look right for the hc/pc thing but I like for shooting.

Clarification;
Using the gun as a shotgun, you point it and keep eyes on target as Stumpkiller says.
For ball, you must aim more , using it as a rifle.

I found with a ball, that a decently heavy charge of 2F (125 grs) a thick felt wad, .750" ball, a good lot of soft lube, and another felt wad, would shoot very well to 50 yards.
A mate and myself tried ours off a bench at 50 yards, and both produced groups in of 3 1/2" to 4 1/4" for 10 shots, but it was Not Nice, and we both got our faces belted a time or 2. Looked like hamsters when we were done. :)

Another pal (Back in then UK) who has taken gold a few times recently in International shooting, has scores in the 90's off-hand with his 'Bess. 5o metres, or 55 yards.
(97 or 98 being his best I believe)
Mark has found that a lighter charge and a patched ball works very well, and his load is different to the one I mention above.

Best,
Richard.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
I rarely, if ever, used charges above 70 gr.

Gotta do it with shot if you want reasonable penetration. I tried the Roundballs "tuna can" test with mine at 25 yards using 80 grains of 2f powder and 1 5/8 oz of #6 shot. Rolled the can all over the place, but not a pellet penetrated.
 

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