Muzzle velocity

Having a debate and need to refute claim made by a self proclaimed expert. What would be the muzzle velocity of a 45 percussion rifle using 60 grains of 3f? He says 700 fps, I say twice that at least but have no way to measure. If you can help, thanks.

1720 fps per T/C with FFg and a round ball. Add a bit for FFFg

Thank you very much...

700fps :rotf:

Show him a chart for 45/70!

Experts, X is the unknown factor and pert is as in erect nipple!

B :thumbsup:

Prb does lose velocity in a short distance. 1600 fps will be about 700 at a hundred yards.

Barrel length is important in the .45's with a patched ball. Not sure about 60 grains but quite sure it's much more than 700 fps. Are you sure the 700 isn't referring to muzzle energy?

There isn't a whole lot of information on .45 patched ball loads anymore. I do intend to do a little field testing with the .45 patched ball in the future but I do not have a chronograph for velocity. I never cared what the velocity numbers are as long as it's reasonably flat trajectory with good accuracy. I am looking forward to putting together a .45 in the future.

From the Lyman Black Powder Handbook (1975)

.45 PRB 60 grains 3f BP

28" barrel = 1593 fps MV and 748 ft./lbs. ME

32" barrel = 1819 fps MV and 975 ft./lbs. ME

There isn't a whole lot of information on .45 patched ball loads anymore.

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:shocked2: There isn't?
Wat happened to it? War did it go?

As you have found, reading the others comments, your friend is sadly mistaken.

The LYMAN BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK & LOADING MANUAL 2nd Ed. shows several different velocities for a patched round ball loaded over 60 grains of powder in a .45.

The data is for a 28", 1:48 twist barrel.

Shooting Goex 2Fg = 1614 fps. Goex 3Fg = 1719 fps, Elephant 2Fg = 1645 fps, Elephant 3Fg = 1609 fps, Pyrodex RS = 1663 fps, Pyrodex Select = 1698 fps and Pyrodex P = 1738 fps. (Elephant powder is no longer available. When it was, it was noted for the heavy fouling it left in the bore.
Usually, Elephant was weaker than GOEX.)

As you can see, there is variation between the powders and I suspect Swiss would add about 200 fps to the above values.

In any case, 700 feet per second is well below the .45 caliber balls velocity even at 100 yards which is typically over 900 fps.

Are you sure the 700 isn't referring to muzzle energy?

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Bravo! :applause: That's a good probability.

A .440 round ball exiting at 1600 fps will give you about 728 Ft.Lbs. of energy. He's probably confusing MV with Ft.Lbs.

LD

I have heard over the years you can use about 10% less of Swiss 3f and get the same results as 10% more of Goex.

I’m not sure where this info originated or if it’s a fact or not.

Swiss from my expierience burns a little cleaner.

Great for small bores.
.

Swiss and Olde Eynsford both typically show a little more velocity over Triple 7. According to Hodgdon 60 grns of 2F T7 in a 28” barrel with a PRB produces about 1926 fps. Comparing that to the same charge of 2F Goex (1614 fps) we see about a 20% increase.

The reason Swiss and Olde Eynsford burn hotter and cleaner is the wood used for the carbon in the powder. Goex uses poplar/cottonwood for their carbon base, whereas Swiss and OE use Alder. Alder wood makes a very hot fire with very little ash, that is why it burns cleaner and has a greater velocity, poplar burns cooler, has more smoke and leaves sooty deposits.
I still like Goex for my shooting. I don't mind the little extra cleaning or swabbing. With the price of BP these days, I just can't get myself to shell out the extra 2-3 dollars per pound over Goex.

I shoot Goex myself, except in my .32 & .36 then I shoot Swiss.

I got Goex in 1,2,3 & 4f , Swiss in 3f only.

smo said:

I have heard over the years you can use about 10% less of Swiss 3f and get the same results as 10% more of Goex.

I’m not sure where this info originated or if it’s a fact or not.

Swiss from my expierience burns a little cleaner.

Great for small bores.
.

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That is a pretty good estimate.

I just compared the cost per shot of standard Goex to Goex Olde Eynsford, though my figures are likely a bit off.

A fellow on another forum tested various powders. He averaged the weight of his 30 grn measure, and though he didn’t have standard Goex he did have Grafs which is rebranded Schuetzen. I figure the density is similar and used those figures for Goex which was a weight of 28.2 grns.

Olde E weighed 23.8 grns. Now the cost from Grafs for standard Goex is $18.59/lb and for Olde E it is $20.79. But when you figure up the number of “30” grn shots per pound you find you get 248.2 with Grafs and 294.1 with Olde E. That makes Grafs $0.075/per shot and Olde E $0.071/per shot. One could reduce their Olde E use if wanting the same performance/velocity as the standard stuff and stretch that even further.

didn’t have standard Goex he did have Grafs which is rebranded Schuetzen.

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In use, I cannot detect a difference in performance between Schuetzen and Goex. For whatever that's worth. Others may have a different take on it.

From what little I’ve seen they do give very similar velocities. But then so does Swiss and Olde E and there is a bit of variance as far as weight. A bit of an assumption on my part that Schuetzen weighs similarly to standard Goex. Granted the weight difference between Swiss and Olde E isn’t but 2.5% that same percentage could potentially bring Goex to 27.4 grns weight for that same volume, which would amount to 255.5 shots per pound at a cost of $0.073. Guess it’s not enough to amount to much...

In my .45 flintlock with a 36" barrel, 60 grains of Goex or Jack's Battle Powder gives around 1700 fps, IIRC. Using cotton canvas duck for patches, it gets more than that.

There are no .45 production rifles for patched ball anymore. It's all custom builds that cost a good bit more and most that buy custom go bigger bore. So... there is less information either past or present.