Hawken barrels

Were original Hawken barrels made from solid bar stock or were they made from strips of steel/iron hammer forged around a round bar, damascus like ?
Fred

Old Ford said:

Were original Hawken barrels made from solid bar stock or were they made from strips of steel/iron hammer forged around a round bar, damascus like ?
Fred

Click to expand...

The few I have seen do not show any damascus characteristics.

Do you really think they were bored from solid stock?
I am not saying " No Way", I just don't know, considering 1830 to 18??
Boring with water power, steam, or goats was possible.
If the barrels were hammer forged from strips of iron/steel, there would be evidence, sometimes.
Don't know manure from gold!
Fred

I`ve seen in a blacksmithing book that shows two bars of iron with a fuller down the center of each forge welded together. leaves you only two seams. forged to octagon then it is drilled and bored out to the desired calibre.
there is also a method of wrapping a flat iron bar around a mandrel lengthwise and forge welding leaving only one straight seam. forged to shape then bored out.
book is called "The Art of Blacksmithing" by Alex Bealer

Sometime in the very early 1800”s Remington started making fluid steel barrels. They supplied a lot of gunsmith. They were cast from steel with a hole which could be bored out to the desired caliber, then rifled.

Now that you mention it, years ago I was given an old .38 cal. original cap lock muzzle loader, with Remington stamped on it.
It was old and grungy, solid, but nothing special.
So I gave it away to Peter Alexander....who knows where it is today.
I doubt it was worth much, but I kick myself in the butt for giving away one of those old Remington barrels.
Thank you for the enlightenment.
Fred.

I rebored one when working with bob hoyt. it showed no seams or weld marks. it looked like any other bored through piece of steel. it was soft softer then 12 L 14.
some of the old forge welded barrels would have hard spots. some of them were so bad the best we could do was to bore them and put a liner in.

H Pope started making his own barrels because he could not get a ready made barrel that he was happy with.

Old Ford said:

Were original Hawken barrels made from solid bar stock or were they made from strips of steel/iron hammer forged around a round bar, damascus like?
Fred

Click to expand...

Original Hawken barrels would have been forge welded using iron skelps. The manufacturing technology to produce steel alloys and deep hole drilling was not developed until after the Hawken brothers time.

History of Iron and Steel Production

History of Gun Drilling

At times, the Hawken brothers forged their own barrels and other times purchased ready made barrel blanks which they reamed and rifled.

The forged welded barrels they used were not damascus. Damascus steel is produced from alternating layers of iron and steel that is worked into a billet. It was too expensive for the rifles the Hawken brothers were building.

Mtn Meek,
I have never had an original Hawken in my greasy hands ( though I wish )
On close inspection was it common to see the traces of the ribbons of the hammer forged barrels.
I have only seen a few barrels like this.
Some of the ones actually had three or four barber pole like seams the full length of the barrel.
They were not cracks or open fissures but a fine like seam wrapping the length of the barrels.
They were only feint like lines showing through the draw filed flats, even though the barrels were 150+ years old.
The lines were more evident on the bottom flats covered by the stock.
Thank you for the information.
Best regards!
Fred

In short no.

In the early 19th Century there was a faux metal finishing technique that made the barrels look, Damascus or ribboned.

Do you really think they were bored from solid stock?

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Didn't say that. Just said what I saw, or failed to see. I think I have seen only two original Hawkens. One in a glass case in a museum. The other owned by a guy here in Arkansas. Robin has seen that one also. I didn't study for seams or forging. So, dunno... :idunno:

eggwelder said:

I`ve seen in a blacksmithing book that shows two bars of iron with a fuller down the center of each forge welded together. leaves you only two seams. forged to octagon then it is drilled and bored out to the desired calibre.
there is also a method of wrapping a flat iron bar around a mandrel lengthwise and forge welding leaving only one straight seam. forged to shape then bored out.
book is called "The Art of Blacksmithing" by Alex Bealer

Click to expand...

This is what I have seen on some older guns, but not having the opportunity to handle/examine a Hawken or even a Leman plains rifle.
Thank you for the above information.
Fred

Old Ford said:

Mtn Meek,
I have never had an original Hawken in my greasy hands ( though I wish )
On close inspection was it common to see the traces of the ribbons of the hammer forged barrels.
I have only seen a few barrels like this.
Some of the ones actually had three or four barber pole like seams the full length of the barrel.
They were not cracks or open fissures but a fine like seam wrapping the length of the barrels.
They were only feint like lines showing through the draw filed flats, even though the barrels were 150+ years old.
The lines were more evident on the bottom flats covered by the stock.
Thank you for the information.
Best regards!
Fred

Click to expand...

Fred,

Guns of this age often have so much patina on the visible flats of the barrels that it would be difficult to see any seams unless, as you say, the barrel was removed from the stock and the underside examined. That's something that very few of us have the opportunity to do or see.

That said, below is a picture of late S. Hawken barrel stamp. On the oblique flat just below the name and address stamp are a couple of wiggly lines that could be remnants of the weld seam. If so, this barrel was forge welded with the seam running longitudinally rather than spiraling around the barrel. Both techniques were used. Also, if you look above the stamp for "LOUIS", you can see imperfections in the metal that are common for wrought iron.



You can see the same type of imperfection from an inclusion in the wrought iron in the picture of the S. Hawken stamp on the rifle in the link below.
https://jamesdjulia.com/item/51958-28-397/

I have an antique J. Fordney small caliber Lancaster rifle that probably dates to the 1840's. The patina on the barrel is way too opaque to see any evidence of a forge weld.

I also have a H. Leman squirrel rifle that could date from anywhere between 1850 and 1880. Again, the patina is too opaque to see any seams, if they are there.

I haven't taken the barrels out of the stock of either rifle, so I don't know what is visible on the protected flats.