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Login Name Post: Blanket question        (Topic#306221)
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-20-18 02:57 AM - Post#1664791    

    In response to tenngun

By the by I don’t really think stone circle building spread from America to Europe, and I don’t think the Scots came from America.
But...
At least the Welsh and the Mandan do share some DNA markers.
Then there is that 10000 year old skull found on the banks of the Columbia river that looks European
And stone points in the Carolinas that look like 30000 year old European points

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1428
01-20-18 10:36 AM - Post#1664840    

    In response to tenngun

Since you went there, one of the strangest cases is the group of over 100 6-8000 year old skeletons found at the Wendover Bog Site in Florida.

http://nbbd.com/godo/history/windover/

Their DNA was tested, and they were of Haplogroup X, which is not found much in either Western North America or East Asia.

As far as the blanket tie-in, they were found wrapped in some of the oldest examples of woven fabric found anywhere in the world, thanks to being preserved in the peat bog.

  • Quote:
The "yarn" was made with fibers from native plants--probably palmetto or queen palm--using at least seven different complex weaves that required the use of some type of loom




 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-20-18 01:51 PM - Post#1664860    

    In response to Native Arizonan

well I had not heard of this. Seven different weaves? Wow! So....I bet that would be seven different shadings, kinda make it look like something checked in multi color. What looks checked in different colors? OMG ... Tartan!!!
Well there you go
Kidding aside I do think small groups of people went all over much earlier then we like to admit. Also we all grew out of one family, we are all the children of one woman. Genetic links can be seen that may have represented something in an original population that died out in one group and survived on another’.

 
Brokennock 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1137
Brokennock
01-20-18 05:10 PM - Post#1664883    

    In response to tenngun

There is evidence of paleo hunters crossing from north western Europe to the north eastern part of what would be come known as North America. Similar to the Bering sea land bridge, but, it's theorized, they did this crossing seasonally and at some point got stuck over here by an early thaw.

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1428
01-20-18 06:54 PM - Post#1664900    

    In response to tenngun

Here is a video that shows some original artifacts as well as a bunch of reproduction weaving, including a examples of the different types of weaving found at Windover Bog:



 
Black Hand 
Cannon
Posts: 7044
01-20-18 07:11 PM - Post#1664902    

    In response to Brokennock

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/first-americans-l...

https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/bering-land-bridge-first...

 
Black Hand 
Cannon
Posts: 7044
01-20-18 07:28 PM - Post#1664905    

    In response to tenngun

  • tenngun Said:
Then there is that 10000 year old skull found on the banks of the Columbia river that looks European


I watched a program recently where the DNA of Kennewick Man was isolated and compared to global DNA markers by the Max Planck in Germany. The results indicated the remains were of Native American ancestry. It had been thought the remains were of European ancestry, but it seems this is no longer the case...

 
Black Hand 
Cannon
Posts: 7044
01-20-18 09:08 PM - Post#1664932    

    In response to Black Hand

Correction: Centre for GeoGenetics, Natural History Museum of Denmark, University of Copenhagen, Øster Voldgade 5-7, DK-1350 Copenhagen K

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14625

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-20-18 09:42 PM - Post#1664938    

    In response to Black Hand

And that brings up interesting questions. The DNA says American Indian. The taxonomy of the skull says European. Should we imagine in our minds eye a group of hunter gatherers who split up in Central Asia half turn toward Europe half to America we get European Indians.
Then we have to ask when there was a split between proto Europeans and proto Asian/ American Indian took place.
Some Europeans have Neanderthal DNA , but Neanderthal was local, west Asian and Europe. Then Lapps, and Siberian’s are closer to Indians then most Asians ????
We’re looking for the ‘real river’ in a delta.

 
Black Hand 
Cannon
Posts: 7044
01-20-18 09:48 PM - Post#1664939    

    In response to tenngun

The DNA data tells the story and is more dependable than skull shape. DNA can't be altered while skull shape can change due to accident, injury, disease or birth parents. Definitely an interesting riddle...

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-20-18 10:14 PM - Post#1664941    

    In response to Black Hand

Yup. All peoples are the results of mixed genes. I chuckle at the DNA sites since we all are the results of mix and match. Louis Lamor wrote that pure race is a joke. Ask some one where he is from and the best he can answer is where a few of his ancestors lived a thousand years ago.

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-20-18 10:28 PM - Post#1664942    

    In response to tenngun

And Kennewick man was 10000 years old. Was this before ‘clasic’ Indian features would evolve. Did the sub artic people more classic european looking at say 15000 years ago before classic Indian Mongolian Siberian east/ Central European evolved different looks?
We need an Apple time machine.

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1428
01-20-18 11:34 PM - Post#1664944    

    In response to tenngun

  • tenngun Said:
And Kennewick man was 10000 years old. Was this before ‘clasic’ Indian features would evolve. Did the sub artic people more classic european looking at say 15000 years ago before classic Indian Mongolian Siberian east/ Central European evolved different looks?
We need an Apple time machine.



That is a good question leading to a good point. Kennewick Man had MTDNA Haplogroup X, like the Windover Bog People. Native Americans are somewhere around 3% Haplogroup X, but caucasians are about 2% haplogroup X, too. Geneticists put the best guess for the starting place for that group somewhere around the Near East. So it is the one MTDNA Haplogroup found among the Native Americans that is not Asian in origin. They probably did look caucasian early on, before they mixed with a bunch of Asian newcomers.

Migration theorists think they walked across Siberia, Beringia, and Alaska to get here, but there is no way they can really know that. They just assume they weren't capable of making it to America by ship. They can't prove it, they can provide a small bit of evidence, but they can't prove it. Neither can anyone prove them wrong. Right now, given no more evidence shows up, the Bering Straight path is the best guess.

Edited by Native Arizonan on 01-20-18 11:42 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-21-18 10:24 AM - Post#1664983    

    In response to Native Arizonan

The slow migration across beringia always caught in my craw. The ice free corridor doesn’t seem to reflect facts on the ground. Solid 11,500 year old sites exist in South America. A time when the corridor had been closed. Last open at 30,000 years ago. Migrate throug the corridor at 30 k then almost 20 k to migrate down to southAmerica??? Seems a lot.

Migration around the coast seems a lot easier. You can always find something to eat on a beach.
Unfortunately that puts all the earliest Indian sites under a couple of hundred feet of water. Building a boat makes the world your oyster. The first Australians got there by boat along time before the first American showed up, so boats are not out of the question.

Edited by tenngun on 01-21-18 10:24 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1428
01-21-18 11:06 AM - Post#1664993    

    In response to tenngun

It is pretty much an accepted fact, now, that humans 10,000 years ago had normal human intelligence, on par with today's humans. They just lacked a few thousand years of shared experiences through family, libraries or Google Searches, that we have now. The scientists don't consider, of course, that other info and experiences have also been lost to us, and we don't, and can't, know what all these experiences were.

I see no reason to rule out seafaring cultures, even over the deep sea, away from land. The Polynesians traveled as family groups and lived off the sea the same way others have lived off the land. They really had little need to make land, as they obviously traveled the ocean with family units and had storage of water and food that tided them over until the next time they lucked into either of those items. If man could cross extensive deserts, that didn't have available food or water, they could certainly cross oceans.

My own opinion is that we, as a society, have not yet gotten over certain "truisms" in our view of prehistory that come from medieval interpretations of the Old Testament. That viewpoint caused science, in it's infancy, to rule out mankind as existing before about 3500 BC, or 5500 BPE. Using these limits, along with a straight-line evolution of thought (also a product of medieval thinking), caused science to assume man couldn't have made it here by crossing the ocean; and that has become accepted dogma that now needs extraordinary proof for today's scientist to overcome it.



 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14167
Rifleman1776
01-21-18 11:15 AM - Post#1664998    

    In response to tenngun

  • Quote:
boats are not out of the question.




Remember Kon-Tiki. Good read.

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-21-18 11:45 AM - Post#1665015    

    In response to Rifleman1776

Yup, the Bronze Age started when people mixed tin with copper. Problem is tin mines were few and far between in the areas where the Bronze Age started. You can’t realistically move tin out of the Black Sea or the ‘tin islands’ thought to be Britain with out sea going craft.
Then we see the Precolumbian native carved heads that look like Europeans and Africans. It doesn’t take much of a boat to get from Europe to America.

 
Bo T 
40 Cal.
Posts: 322
01-21-18 01:25 PM - Post#1665042    

    In response to tenngun

Don't recall where I saw it, but someone may have posted some satellite imagery that indicates the remains of civilization (ie apparent rectangular fields, etc) off the coast of Washington and Oregon.

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-21-18 01:40 PM - Post#1665046    

    In response to Bo T

I’ve seen that. And it is a maybe. Until some works done on it it is a big question mark. It looks like a regular pattern but so does pillow rocks making what looks like a road in the Caribian. Likewise the flooded city looking but seemingly perfectly natural ‘Japanese Atlantas’.
My fall back position leans to it being positive marks, but not surprised if it’s natural.

 
Grumpa 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2018
01-22-18 12:03 AM - Post#1665126    

    In response to Brokennock

It is theorized that people traveled from Europe to North America during the Ice Age, keeping close to glaciers where they could get fresh water.

37 miles west of Pittsburgh is the Meadowcroft Rock Shelter at Avella. Evidence/artifacts of ongoing human habitation from 16,000 years ago! And the digging has stopped, awaiting future advances in archeological techniques. (The site is too important to risk damage.)

Richard/Grumpa

 
Grumpa 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2018
01-22-18 10:36 AM - Post#1665171    

    In response to Grumpa

There was no village or habitation at the Rock Shelter. Rather, it was used as a regular layover point where travelers would stop for a few days in their east and west travels.

Richard/Grumpa

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7326
tenngun
01-22-18 10:47 AM - Post#1665174    

    In response to Grumpa

At this point in time we know in France caves were occupied seasons only in response to migration, but they did much more then transient occupation. Shortly there after transient building was going on in Turkey. Coming back to the same spot over and over suggest proto-occupation.
Suggest.
The date 16.5 k is important since the ice free corridor was closed at this time and had been closed for almost 10k years before. If proto- Indians had crossed in to America when the ice free corridor was open 30 k years ago then they amazingly left little or no tracks.

Edited by tenngun on 01-22-18 10:47 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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