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Login Name Post: "Sam Brown" button stud        (Topic#306211)
Brokennock 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1139
Brokennock
01-09-18 09:46 PM - Post#1662441    


When can the brass "stud" type buttons (I've seen them called "Sam Browne" buttons after their use on the gun belts of his name) be dated to? Late 18th century? Earlier/later? If within the 1756 to 1790's time period, any evidence of them being used as a bag closure?

 
Cruzatte 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1098
Cruzatte
01-09-18 10:27 PM - Post#1662452    

    In response to Brokennock

This may be only a partial answer. The button stud as well as the Sam Browne belt are named for General Sir Samuel Browne (1824-1901) a British cavalry officer who saw service in India. IIRC the Sam Browne button stud was used on Civil War revolver holsters, cartridge boxes, and cap pouches. How much longer before then I haven't been able to learn.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7521
01-10-18 01:14 AM - Post#1662469    

    In response to Brokennock

I am not entirely sure this is what you mean, but are you referring to the double head brass studs on M1851 Sword Belt Hanger Straps as shown below?

Repro Stud alone:
http://www.ccsutlery.com/store/saber-belt-brass-stud.html

Close up on the end of the hanger strap and to the immediate left of the swivel hook.
http://perryadamsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSC...

More on two hanger straps where the swivels are missing
http://perryadamsantiques.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DSC...

Gus

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7521
01-10-18 01:57 AM - Post#1662472    

    In response to Artificer

If the above studs were not what you meant, then perhaps you mean "finials" that were found on holsters, cartridge boxes and cap boxes, etc. in a variety of shapes.

Below is a unique Gold washed/Silver plated original that shows how they were attached to the leather. There was a long stud that was part of the finial and went through the leather. A brass or copper washer was placed over it and against the leather on the inside. Then the end of the stud was peened/flattened over the washer to hold the finial tightly in place.
http://sgtriker.com/images/cb92215.jpg

Gus

 
Brokennock 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1139
Brokennock
01-10-18 12:14 PM - Post#1662549    

    In response to Artificer

The second one is what I'm talking about.

 
Brokennock 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1139
Brokennock
01-10-18 12:17 PM - Post#1662550    

    In response to Artificer

Essentially would like to use one of these to close a shot pouch with a flap that only covers a little less than half the front of the bag. I hate buttons to close such things as I find them a pain to close quickly with one hand.

Edited by Brokennock on 01-10-18 12:18 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7521
01-10-18 01:22 PM - Post#1662568    

    In response to Brokennock

  • Brokennock Said:
The second one is what I'm talking about.




OK, I just finished preparing the following post when I noticed you had replied the finial closure was what you meant. Since I went to the trouble of doing the following post, I will include it and then come back for more on finial closures.

As you may or probably know, bag closures in the period you asked about were often leather rolled buttons or buttons made of bone, pewter or even brass.

Not knowing exactly what you are looking for, the closest thing I can easily think of for an unusual closure for a leather “Shot Pouch,” Cartridge Pouch or Cartridge Box is the Iron Closure on the bottom of the “American New Invented Cartridge Pouch” use in the AWI.

Scroll down to page 95 in the following link where the caption reads:
American New Invented Cartridge Pouch Stamped “U. STATES” with “American System” Closure (Don Troiani)
https://www.scribd.com/document/264830571/Arms-Accoutrements...

Though the above original closure is pointed or heart shaped, Roy Najecki makes or has made that is round in profile. Close Up here:
http://www.najecki.com/repro/buckles/Catch.html

Info on the “Continental Army "single box" this came from is located here:
http://www.najecki.com/repro/pouches/NCCB.html


Gus

P.S. More in next post about Finial Closures


 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7521
01-10-18 02:10 PM - Post#1662581    

    In response to Artificer

Now as to the Brass Finials and going back to your question…..

“If within the 1756 to 1790's time period, any evidence of them being used as a bag closure?”

The closest thing that I know can be documented to that time period and is somewhat close to a Brass Finial, is a Round Brass Button as illustrated on this SUPERB Reproduction Pouch by James Rogers or Cap Jas on this forum.

Close up:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JV3bIMJRjik/TiH-R_F5P6I/AAAAAAAAlO...

More pics can be found here:
http://fowlingpiece.blogspot.com/

As far as I have personally documented Brass Finials like the one shown in my post above, they are no earlier than around the 1840’s to 1850’s and commonly used by the WBTS/UnCivil War. They might be a few years before that, but not in the time period you asked about above.

OK, I fully admit I am CRINGING when I bring this next thing up, because I have never seen the documentation for the following closure, so please bear in mind with me.

I have been buying from G. Gedney Godwin since the late 70’s and first met him in person at an event in the early 1980’s. The Brass Belt and Box Buckles, Brass Sword/Bayonet Lockets and Tips and many similar items Gedney carries were copied from original dug and non-dug examples. Gedney always tried to keep very authentic reproductions, though sometimes the best available is not great.

The following closure is a pretty recent addition to his catalog and is listed as “F&I” which means French and Indian War and if accurately dated, would fit into your time period. However, I suspect it was “mislabeled” as “F&I” and is actually part of their Civil War collection. I could be completely wrong about that, though, so don’t take my suspicion as being chiseled in stone. What I would strongly recommend you do if you want to use this closure is to actually telephone the company to check on the documentation before you use it on a pouch in the time period you mentioned above.
http://gggodwin-com.3dcartstores.com/Scabbard-Locket-Stud--F...

I would really like to get CapJas' view on the above closure, if he notices this thread.

Gus


 
Brokennock 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1139
Brokennock
01-10-18 11:31 PM - Post#1662697    

    In response to Artificer

Thanks Gus. That scabbed locket looks remarkably like what I'm talking about. I may give them a call. I see some pewter buttons I'm interested in as well, for use as the inner and outer buttons for strap attachment on bags like my 1st one.
Would be nice if Cap.Jas. chimes in. Spence as well, maybe with some numbers or other documentation as to how often some type of closing device like a button was used on the few original bags known.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7521
01-11-18 02:22 AM - Post#1662703    

    In response to Brokennock

On that Repro Scabbard Locket that I thought you might like, here is a bit more info.

My primary field of study on the 18th century for bayonet scabbards, cartridge pouches and boxes, etc., etc. is probably 90 percent what the British used (as we were British Americans for 3/4 of the century) and what Americans used.

However, I am no where nearly as good with French, Dutch, German and other Continental Bayonet scabbards and accoutrements. So while I have strong suspicions the Scabbard Locket you like may be Civil War period, it is also possible it is of 18th century Continental manufacture/use that I am not familiar with. So again, if you are interested in it for the time period you mentioned, I would call them to see what documentation they have on that locket. However, even if that locket is correct for the period you mentioned, I would guess that it would have been at most very rarely used on "Shot" or Hunting Pouches.

As you know, there are not many original 18th Century "Shot" or Hunting Pouches that have survived. Because the original sample size is so small and there are not a lot of hunting pouches in original paintings or engravings that show many tiny details, we have to be somewhat careful of generalizations on bag closures.

It seems though that if professional or semi professional leather workers made the bags, they were more likely to have a metal or bone button to use to keep the flap closed. If they were "home made" bags, then a rolled leather button would have been very common or a button of wood/bone and yes sometimes a metal button as well.

I have made rolled leather buttons and they are not hard to make, but don't look as "finished" as I like on my bags. However if someone absolutely wants one, I have used them on repro period bags before.

You are most welcome for the information.

Gus



 
Capt. Jas. 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2375
01-11-18 05:50 AM - Post#1662705    

    In response to Artificer

I'm not that familiar with militry stuff as many are so I'm not sure about that button and it's date. Looks an awful lot like a Sam Brown type to me. I have seen scabbard lockets that were almost round but had a hint of tear shape. I would like some clarification on those ad well.
Those bulbous old buttons like I used on the stuffed bag Gus linked work really well for entry and good enough for keeping closed.
As far as the leather buttons, I would not say they were for only non-professional closures. I have seen some very nice Euro original bags made by pro leather crafter that utilized leather buttons throughout a project. A nice tapered rolled button looks good. Wish I could post a pic.



Edited by Capt. Jas. on 01-11-18 05:53 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6467
01-11-18 10:05 AM - Post#1662750    

    In response to Capt. Jas.

Gus, thanks for the link to Capt.Jas.'s site. I had forgotten about how incredibly talented you are, sir.

 
Brokennock 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1139
Brokennock
01-11-18 11:45 AM - Post#1662784    

    In response to Capt. Jas.

Thanks for the info, glad you chimed in. I think for now I'll try to design any bag I make for myself to not need the button. I like how they look on some bags, but, as I said before, I find them a pain to use.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7521
01-11-18 01:48 PM - Post#1662811    

    In response to Capt. Jas.

Thanks Capt. Jas. for your thoughts and for your absolutely lovely leather work.

Bill,

You are most welcome. I keep James' site handy to better inspire me.

Gus

 
Capt. Jas. 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2375
01-11-18 06:43 PM - Post#1662883    

    In response to Artificer

That blog is quite outdated due to the fact most everything has gone facebook, instagram,etc.
My Facebook page has a lot of new things on there. I humbly thank you guys for the compliments.
James


 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 7521
01-11-18 11:21 PM - Post#1662925    

    In response to Capt. Jas.

My problem is I don't do Facebook. Too many problems with privacy, security and other issues for me. Since last time I checked Facebook won't allow one to see things on Facebook without being a member, that rules me out.

Gus

 
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