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Login Name Post: Pyrodex Powder        (Topic#306206)
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 12342
Colorado Clyde
01-17-18 08:05 PM - Post#1664194    

    In response to Adui

I've shot most of the substitutes....Lots of pryodex. 777, Black MZ.....It only lends credence to my opinions on real black powder (1st choice)...But, I'll take anything over nothing....

If they came out with a new powder tomorrow, I would probably try it....


Edited by Colorado Clyde on 01-17-18 08:06 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Mooman76 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3209
01-17-18 08:56 PM - Post#1664209    

    In response to Adui

Sounds like when someone told me that urinal cakes had a warning that they cause cancer. I told him not to eat them.

 
Adui 
45 Cal.
Posts: 850
Adui
01-17-18 10:09 PM - Post#1664231    

    In response to Mooman76

  • Mooman76 Said:
Sounds like when someone told me that urinal cakes had a warning that they cause cancer. I told him not to eat them.





Yup.. When I was in 4th grade the class brainiac showed us all an actual scientific report that proved hot dogs cause cancer..

Bottom line use common sense and don't be stupid if you can help it; and you will be fine
"I hope to be at least half as good as my dog believes me to be." Unknown Author


 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 12342
Colorado Clyde
01-17-18 10:15 PM - Post#1664233    

    In response to Adui

  • Adui Said:
  • Mooman76 Said:
Sounds like when someone told me that urinal cakes had a warning that they cause cancer. I told him not to eat them.





Yup.. When I was in 4th grade the class brainiac showed us all an actual scientific report that proved hot dogs cause cancer..

Bottom line use common sense and don't be stupid if you can help it; and you will be fine



Well of course hot dogs are deadly....They killed all the animals that are in them didn't they?...


 
AZbpBurner 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1686
AZbpBurner
01-17-18 10:52 PM - Post#1664235    

    In response to azmntman

I learned to shoot flint from an old gent who had a family collection of original flintlocks. I asked him about the type of powder he used & he said: "black powder". He had "casks" of powder handed down throughout generations along with the rifle & horn collection. He estimated the powder was from the 1850's & it worked like new. I built a horn & he filled it for me. I found the horn packed away a few years ago & used it for my flint GPR, Deerstalker, and a couple of cap rifles. Near as I could tell it was 3F.

I use BP in all my flint rifles and Fusils, but for cap & ball revolvers and the cap rifles, I usually use Pyrodex. Especially in the C&B pistols, Pyrodex performs with the same excellent accuracy as real BP and Sportsmans Warehouse is just across town. Thunderstick Trading Co. in Tucson is the closest BP source, and is about a 300 mile roundtrip drive. Since my family is no longer in Tucson, I don't visit there much anymore.

I've never had any issues with Pyrodex. Corrosive is corrosive & I always clean everything before sundown of the same day I've fired it. Residual corrosion/red rust is a result of incomplete cleaning, or waiting too long after shooting.


 
Gene L 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1208
01-17-18 11:10 PM - Post#1664236    

    In response to AZbpBurner

The only advantage I see to Pyrodex is it's available. It works pretty good in cap locks, I don't have anything against it. Since I have a couple of flints, I bit the bullet and paid through the nose for Goex. Does it work better? Undoubtedly in a flint gun (or so I've read)but in a cap gun Pyrodex works fine. It's just as nasty as bp and requires the same amount of maintenance, so I no longer use it at all. I don't know about the others; I have a pound of 777 but have never torched off a cap lock with it. I've seen "elitism" ruin primitive archery and would hate to see the same principal ruining bp shooting, so I say shoot what makes you happy...and don't worry too much about authenticity. Unless you want to be authentic: your choice.

 
Adui 
45 Cal.
Posts: 850
Adui
01-17-18 11:15 PM - Post#1664238    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Colorado Clyde Said:


Well of course hot dogs are deadly....They killed all the animals that are in them didn't they?...




you have the day Sir!!
"I hope to be at least half as good as my dog believes me to be." Unknown Author


 
Walks with fire 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1870
01-18-18 04:20 AM - Post#1664258    

    In response to Adui

I only have flint rifles so it's black for me. I don't know if it's true or not but I have read/heard that subs decline in potency as they age and that's not an issue with black powder.

Sub's are where things are headed and until someone develops something that works in a flinter it would be wise to stock a little black away. It won't get cheaper as we go on and maybe much harder to get as well. Then on top of all that is the issue of lead as a projectile legislation.

My only exposure to Triple 7 in a flinter was a guy that wanted to shoot it and was in no way going to change his mind. He was new to flinting and couldn't get the gun to fire very well. They asked me if I would help and I did get it to fire with black in the pan and 7 in the bore. It shot well too; but needed the black in the pan to fire.

Black is available here in Pa at about 30 bucks a pound so it costs about 40 cents a shot. I keep a supply back incase it gets hard to get and buy locally when I finish a can. I know subs will work in the barrel with a little black down the tube and in the pan so if I have to go to subs I know it will work. If I shot cap guns I would probably use the best sub I could get.

 
Okie Hog 
40 Cal.
Posts: 339
01-18-18 09:00 AM - Post#1664290    

    In response to IowaShooter

  • Quote:
if you have a Bass Pro shop near you then you should be able to get real Goex Black Powder.



The Bass Pro store in OK City does not carry black powder. They say the fire marshall will not allow the stuff in their store.

 
RedFeather 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1253
01-18-18 02:07 PM - Post#1664352    

    In response to Okie Hog

You've hit the nail on the head. Storage restrictions have made it uneconomical for shops where I live to store BP.

About subs declining in power, I'm not so sure. I bought a bottle of Pyrodex Cartridge about thirty years ago for a rolling block. Never got around to using it. The dumb clerks at the store were curious as to what it looked like, so ripped a hole in the paper seal beneath the cap. Been stored since in a cool, dry place. Last summer, I poured a small bit onto a piece of foil and lit it with a bbq lighter. Went poof with authority. Thinking of trying it in a Zouave.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13532
Rifleman1776
01-18-18 03:15 PM - Post#1664357    

    In response to AZbpBurner

  • Quote:
He had "casks" of powder handed down throughout generations along with the rifle & horn collection. He estimated the powder was from the 1850's & it worked like new.



Those "casks" even without powder may have some serious collector value.

 
rdstrain49 
40 Cal.
Posts: 433
01-18-18 04:43 PM - Post#1664377    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

I read the SDS sheet Clyde, all that tells me is that you probably should stop eating the stuff.

 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 25809
Zonie
01-18-18 06:22 PM - Post#1664391    

    In response to rdstrain49

The SDS I have for Pyrodex says this about it:

Section VI. HEALTH HAZARD DATA
Route(s) of Entry: Inhalation?: Yes Skin?: Yes Ingestion?: Yes
Health Hazards (acute and Chronic): TLV unknown for ingestion of dust, Acute oral LD50 in rats is calculated to be 4.0 [g/kg body weight].
Carcinogenicity: No NTP? No IARC? No OSHA regulated?: No
Signs and Symptoms of Exposure: Burning or itching of the eye, nose, or skin; shortness of breath.
Medical Conditions Generally Aggravated by Exposure: Some people may be unusually sensitive to the product.
Emergency and First Aid Procedures: Remove patient from exposure, and if skin contact, wash affected area with copious amounts of water.

The SDS for T7 says the same thing.

I guess a few folks are allergic to it.
Most people shouldn't breath its dust or eat it.

Beyond that, it doesn't look any more dangerous than a pizza from the local store.

A bit of digging says a oral LD50 of 3000 to 5000 is "slightly toxic"

4.0 g/kg is 4000 mg/kg.

That means a 170 pound man would have to eat 77.13 kg X 4 grams = 308 grams. 308 grams equals 0.679 pounds so he would be eating over half a bottle of Pyrodex before he would see any "slightly toxic" effects.
Just Jim...



Edited by Zonie on 01-18-18 06:41 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Mean Gene 
40 Cal.
Posts: 373
Mean Gene
01-18-18 10:48 PM - Post#1664461    

    In response to Okie Hog

Bass Pro in Manteca ca doesn't have it either, and neither does Walmart for the record.



 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 12342
Colorado Clyde
01-19-18 12:00 AM - Post#1664471    

    In response to Zonie

The toxicity reference was for Black MZ not pyrodex....It's all moot anyway...Shoot whatever makes you happy.

P.S.
Don't tell anyone but pyrodex always gave me better accuracy than BP.


 
Kansas Jake 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1053
01-19-18 04:17 PM - Post#1664655    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

Clyde, and now after all this time you fess up to better accuracy with Pyrodex!!!!

 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 12342
Colorado Clyde
01-19-18 04:26 PM - Post#1664656    

    In response to Kansas Jake

  • Kansas Jake Said:
Clyde, and now after all this time you fess up to better accuracy with Pyrodex!!!!




Oh no!...I've stated for years that I use to shoot it in competition....


 
Kansas Jake 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1053
01-19-18 04:29 PM - Post#1664657    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

I'll shoot either, but prefer black.

 
54ball 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2497
54ball
01-20-18 10:12 AM - Post#1664838    

    In response to CapPopper

My father says this.

Every man has his own little sack of poop to carry around.

That does not mean family but it could mean the stresses being the head of it, a good mate, a good dad, a good employee, a good son and managing our wants, wants of the family vs needs. Each man has has to manage his little sack in his own way.

Terms like elitist, purists BP snobs.....those who play dress up have been used in this thread. There has been a little, " working class hero" vs wealthy BP elitist thing going on.

All I'll say about my personal life is, I have had my fair share of uncertainty, of difficulties. Some very scary. Stress .... the weight of the world. On the other hand when it's all boiled down I have been blessed as well.

Black Powder stuff is just a small part of my world. I advocate the use of black powder over pyrodex and recommend it to all my friends. Personally I think it's worth it to get it.
Here's why.

Potassium Perchlorate. Pyrodex is 30 percent PP.
Perchorates were used since the early 1800s in percussion cap formulas. Later they were used in center fire primers.

If you notice most old percussion rifles, they will show lock plate surfaces rusted away, heavy corrosion on the breech many even having the wood eaten away at the lock panel. This is due to the corrosive nature of those primers. Some of these rifles have decent bores from good up keep but they still show damage around the lock where concentrations of Perchorates were greater.

Original flintlocks do not show this damage around the lock. Ones that have damage there, were at one time percussion and converted back.

In summary the damage associated with 19th Century black powder corrosion was primarily caused by the primers. The caps.

When perchlorates break down from combustion, they turn to table salt.

Pyrodex marketing......

In the late 70s through the 80s Pyrodex was marketed directly and indirectly as a improved modern substitute of blackpowder. Some writers went so far as to say excessive cleaning was unnecessary as it fouled like smokeless. "Does not corrode like Blackpowder" was even on the can. Now this is a play on words. That is very true. It is much much worse.

There is a lot of irony here.
1st The corrosion associated with black power was really due to the primers...caps.
2nd The "modern improvent" uses as a main ingredient the very substances that promoted corrosion in original BP arms.

So Pyrodex is in reality the bad Ju-Ju of corrosion that people think blackpowder is.

My father's Renegade....
My father bought a TC Renegade back in 1979. Before the Great Recession of 2008+ the late 70s early 80s were tough economic times. That Renegade was kind of special. In 3rd grade I even drew a "Pilgrim" using a Renegade and wrote a story for the class with the Pilgrim shooting a turkey for the Thanksgiving poster.

Anyway, my father started with BP and switched to Pyrodex. He cleaned his gun like he always had, besides this stuff does not corrode like BP, right? As a hunter you may know about the fouling shot or fluffing the barrel. The rifle would stay loaded for a hunt with a slightly fouled bore. Afterwards it was cleaned.
For a time my father did not hunt and the Renegade was put away for a few seasons. By that time I was in to BP pretty heavily and he had me try to clean up that rifle. It was put away clean but the bore went south in the gun cabinet. He did not clean it good enough.
It was used for a few more years, now it has a Green Mountain Barrel.
My father is not alone, just take a look at all the TC re-bore and re-barrel threads.

The use of Pyrodex.....

Pyrodex shooters need to know what they are up against. Like I said the fouling is pretty much table salt. To have longevity in a barrel, in my opinion it needs to be cleaned after every session immediately. No fluff shots, no hunting with fouled bores for a day or days, the cleaning session should include a pump out with soap and water. This means unpinning a longrifle every time. After the cleaning session the rifle should be checked a day later and periodically after that.

On my flint longrifle, I brush the bore and use patches moistened with soap and water until the patches run clean then I oil. If I used Pyrodex I would unpin the barrel and pump it out.

If you use Pyrodex you have to clean it like a fanatic. This means rechecking regularly.


 
azmntman 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4636
azmntman
01-20-18 11:01 AM - Post#1664843    

    In response to 54ball

If you use Pyrodex you have to clean it like a fanatic. This means rechecking regularly.


I do that with any powder anyway??

 
rodwha 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2015
01-20-18 11:44 AM - Post#1664847    

    In response to azmntman

I do as well. But he is right. When Pyrodex was used in my rifle and was cleaned well, oiled, and stored I'd check it again and get orange on my patches. Eventually it stopped doing that. It doesn't do that in the guns I used only Triple 7 or Olde Eynsford. Just Pyrodex...

 
rodwha 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2015
01-20-18 11:52 AM - Post#1664848    

    In response to 54ball

Great post!

I didn't really know all of the down and dirty aspects of Pyrodex that you pointed out. I was given several bottles of P and RS with my ROA, but didn't like the sticky feel of the residue so I decided to use it merely for breaking in a brand new muzzleloader since I was just shooting for fun.

Having read of a couple of CASS shooters claiming that cleaning immediately wasn't really necessary, that they had gone days-weeks without issue I decided to leave this muzzleloader until the next day as I had spent nearly 10 hours at the range and got home very late with two revolvers to clean. The next morning I freaked out on what I found in my rifle and it took hours before I got clean patches.

A test was done showing the results of Pyrodex, BP, and T7 being left for 4 days in a garage. Pyrodex was MUCH worse than BP. Granted no one should leave a gun sitting after use, and I don't except for that once and another to test the statement that using Ballistol (any oil) would keep it from rusting, which it did. But reading what you wrote and seeing the orange patches despite being cleaned I think I will just dump the remaining Pyrodex I have.

Thanks!

 
Mooman76 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3209
01-20-18 12:00 PM - Post#1664852    

    In response to rodwha

I have been shooting Pyrodex for a long time. I couldn't get BP for quite a few years and guess I got used to it. Anyway I ma not a meticulous cleaner but I do think I clean good. Never had an issue. One thing that may attribute to it was when I first started, there was no internet and no guidance for me on cleaning. I just used Hopps #9 like I would my other guns and still do. It takes a few more swabs but it works for me. Never had an issue and maybe that attributed to it.

 
Okie Hog 
40 Cal.
Posts: 339
01-20-18 12:56 PM - Post#1664856    

    In response to Mooman76



Every fall for many years i scoped, sighted in and tuned up muzzleloaders for other folks. Cleaned up a dozen or two neglected muzzleloaders nearly every fall.

If not cleaned, a gun that fired black powder will be just as damaged as the one that fired Pyrodex.

Black powder and Pyrodex both contain charcoal, sulfur and potassium nitrate. The primary product of combustion in black powder is potassium carbonate. Ditto for Pyrodex. The residues of both contain potassium sulfate and potassium sulfide.

With Pyrodex some of the residue consists of potassium chloride crystals scattered around the bore. IMO: The presence of potassium chloride does not make the residue of Pyrodex any more corrosive than the residue of black powder.

BTW: Except for BlackHorn 209 all the black powder substitutes contain potassium perchlorate. None of the other substitutes are as corrosive as black powder and Pyrodex.

Edited by Okie Hog on 01-20-18 01:05 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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