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Griz44Mag

70 Cal.
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
Messages
4,326
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4,379
Location
Republic of Texas, District of Krum
I had the opportunity today to head out to the range and spend some hours in solitude just pushing some rounds balls at some plate. It was a nice still morning with a slight calm breeze. What a great morning it was.
However, during the course of the morning (more than 60 rounds at varying distances) I made a few observations about nipples, and thought I would ask the experts to chime in. The recent addition of "HOT SHOT" nipples has left me wondering. The only failures I had today were with these. In cleaning and prepping for each shot, I used an air can to blow the nipple out after every shot. On 4 occasions I found the hot shots stopped up flash holes. The nipples were plugged so solidly that I could not get air through them. I discovered that the flash hole in these are smaller than the other 3 brands of nipples I have acquired. Shooting through these and the subsequent side venting from the cross drilled holes in the neck of the nipple had left the area around the nipple and the top of the drum area heavily coated with soot. I also experienced the percussion caps getting wedged into the hammer recess on almost every shot using them.
I did not experience this degree of fouling with any of the other nipples. I guess what I am looking for is an explanation of what is supposed to makes these so hot when they seemingly pass less energy into the breach than a traditional nipple and vent more into the atmosphere.

I am also very happy with the new Williams Peep sight, it pretty much saved the whole art form for me. I had several 5 shot groups of less than 4" at 100 meters. I had a few over too, but had a really good time with all of them!

Griz
 
What caps where you using?

Why were you using canned air? that stuff is cold under pressure and usually causes condensation on metal.

The "Hot-shot " nipple is based on the principal by which wind instruments,blow tubes, propane torches, gas lanterns ect.. work.
Simply that blowing into a tube without an air gap will have less velocity than a tube with an air gap.

Did the gun ever fail to fire with the hot-shot nipple?
 
Colorado Clyde said:
What caps where you using?
CCI #11
Colorado Clyde said:
Why were you using canned air?
The air in the can is CO2, dried for use on electronics. I only use a 1 sec burst to make sure the pathway is clear. If it is not, I pull the nipple and change it to a fresh one.
Colorado Clyde said:
The "Hot-shot " nipple is based on the principal by which wind instruments,blow tubes, propane torches, gas lanterns ect.. work.
Simply that blowing into a tube without an air gap will have less velocity than a tube with an air gap.
Colorado Clyde said:
Did the gun ever fail to fire with the hot-shot nipple?
All 4 failures to fire were with the hot-shot nipples. Each time, I changed the nipple and the gun fired on the next trigger pulled. To be fair, sometimes that change was to another hotshot nipple. They just seem to get clogged up really easy and fast. The most reliable nipple I used was one in the box of loose parts that came with the gun, and I do not know what the brand is, but it has the biggest flash hole of the lot, and has the longest neck. When I buy powder next round, I will go to 3f as you suggested, maybe that will help further reduce the misfires. All that said, 4 out of 60 ain't bad, and a far sight better than where I started with the black powder learning curve. Today was fun and very enjoyable. Misfires are only occurring when things get really dirty. That seems pretty logical to me.
Griz
 
Sounds more like you have other issues going on that is causing the problem. Yes the hole in the Hot Shots nipple is smaller but it is smaller for a reason. It concentrates the flame going through the nipple for better more reliable ignition. Are you swabbing between shots? Sounds like you are pushing fouling down into the nipple area.
 
Something is not right.....I never swap out a nipple during a shooting session unless it breaks or gets mushroomed.

I still think the canned air is part of the problem.....Co2 is very, very cold. It cools the metal down and causes condensation that the fouling latches onto creating a nasty mess...

The problem might be the nipples themselves too. Check the flash hole diameter.

I find that wiping the barrel....followed by pouring M.A.P. down the barrel followed immediately by a patch and pumping action every 10-15 shots will keep you shooting till the sun goes down.
 
Colorado Clyde said:
Something is not right.....I never swap out a nipple during a shooting session unless it breaks or gets mushroomed.

I still think the canned air is part of the problem.....Co2 is very, very cold. It cools the metal down and causes condensation that the fouling latches onto creating a nasty mess...

The problem might be the nipples themselves too. Check the flash hole diameter.

I find that wiping the barrel....followed by pouring M.A.P. down the barrel followed immediately by a patch and pumping action every 10-15 shots will keep you shooting till the sun goes down.

MAP? Are referencing Alcohol? Yes, I am swabbing between shots. I know that my jag is larger than the breech hole so the jag does not reach the bottom of the breech. By blowing air into the nipple, I know that the pathway is clear. Since there is only one hole a rod can go through, how could you possibly NOT collect some soot on the way into the barrel? Swabbing seems to drag most of that out.
Griz
 
I wipe between shots with a lightly moist patch. I push the patch down fast enough that it forces air out the nipple and I can hear it hiss. That way I know everything is clear. I never had a misfire doing it that way unless I dry ball. :doh:
 
I never cared for "UncleMikes Hot Shot" either.
But before I dog'm further I will say I've learned to clean new nipples like I do new guns,, ya have to make sure they are clean of all manufacturing oils before shooting the first time.
Griz44Mag said:
I discovered that the flash hole in these are smaller than the other 3 brands of nipples I have acquired.
So how'd you do that? Nipple pick not fit?
Do you know the size of your nipple pick wire? .030-032,,?


Gotta agree with others, I use canned air with guns too, but clearing nipples isn't one of them. The stuff is made for removing topical dust and rapid drying in short bursts,, portable and handy.
But it's not going to remove hard burned carbon.
Vent and nipple picks are as old as traditional guns,, carbon buildup is a historical known that has been dealt with for centuries.
Canned air ain't gonna be a modern fix for the issue. :idunno:
 
Just a few thoughts:

Griz44Mag said,

"...The only failures I had today were with these. In cleaning and prepping for each shot, I used an air can to blow the nipple out after every shot..."

IMO, that's why your nipple is plugging up.

When the gun fires the pressure under the nipple is anywhere from 5000 to 15000 psi.

It invariably blows back thru the nipple blasting any and all fouling that might be in the nipple back out of the nipple. This usually gets deposited on the gun but some of it can remain in the upper area of the nipple, above the small hole.

At this point, if someone takes what amounts to a strong wind blows down thru the nipple it can attempt to blow some of this fouling back down thru the hole. The trouble is, it doesn't have the power to blow the little bit of loose fouling all the way thru the hole so the hole ends up being slightly plugged.

If anything is going to be used to make sure the nipple hole is clear, it should be a small wire such as is found on some nipple wrenches or make one out of a piece of #22, 23 or 24 guage wire.

I selected these sizes because the hole thru most nipples is smaller than 1/32". Usually it is around a #21 which is .0285" in diameter.
 
This is a problem I don't understand. When I start shooting it is usually for about 2.5 to 3.5 hours. I'll use a 50 and a 45 about 50 50 . In other words about most of an after noon. The only time I can remember a misfire is when I lost my chain of thought . In other words ,started to bs with someone. I use Dutch's system period . Been at it for more than 20 twenty years. Wet swab once ,then dry swab once. At 90 grains for 50 , and about 80 for 45 . All round ball. All I use are the hot shot nipple. Simple.
 
STOP with the canned air. :nono:
That is the root cause of your problem.
As Zonie pointed out,a wire pick might be useful on occasion :thumbsup: All your doing with canned air is blowing whatever "stuff" is around the immediate area back into the nipple's flame channel giving it every possible opportunity to cause problems. :shake:
 
Citas,
Apparently we are the only two lurking around on Christmas day.

If you have ever stood to the right of someone firing a flintlock you become an expert on the subject of the back pressure out the touch hole when a rifle is fired.
That same pressure issent back through the nipple on a cap lock rifle. You say you have hot shot nipples which have the transverse holes drilled in to release that pressure. Everything should be blown clear after each shot.
What may be causing any misfires is in your between shot WIPE. followed by a dry wiping patch.

The first wiping patch should only be damp. with NO excess moisture in it. When you pull the ramrod out, the extra cloth should bunch up around the jag head and sweep the residue from the barrel and sweep the rifling. There is no need for the send dry patch as there is no excess moisture to remove.

If your rifle has a Patent breech, any excess moisture will go in there, where the powder for your next shot will go and that wetting of the powder will certainly cause misfires.

Just a damp wiping path, closer to dry than to wet


The air can to to clear the nipple is probably a complete waste of effort compared to that back pressure.
I had a heavy barreled Scheutzen rifle that didn't use a particularly heavy powder charge, but the back pressure through the nipple would cause the hammer to go all the way back and recock the rifle

In most rifles the hammer holds the expended cap tightly over the nipple opening and this can cause blockage as some of the residue is sent back into the niple with no otlet. Hence the value of the hot Shot nipp;e


And a Happy New Year with no misfires

Dutch Schoultz
 
I don't know the Williams Peep sight but as my vision began to go south I applied the Lyman rear aperture rear and Globe front sight with remarkable success.

I understand that rear aperture (Peep) sights are not allowed on competion shoot as being a modern innovations. One of the first Peeps ights i had eve seen was before I got into all this BP fun and games was on a midevil Cross bow in a Chicago museum

Dutch
 
MAP/M.A.P = equal parts of 90% isopropyl alcohol*, Murphy's Oil Soap, and household/2% hydrogen peroxide. The mixture is also known as Friendship Speed Juice and is very effective.

*70% will work if you can't get the higher concentration.
 
Don Steele said:
STOP with the canned air. :nono:
That is the root cause of your problem.
As Zonie pointed out,a wire pick might be useful on occasion :thumbsup: All your doing with canned air is blowing whatever "stuff" is around the immediate area back into the nipple's flame channel giving it every possible opportunity to cause problems. :shake:
Sorry Don, but the intermittent issue I am having NEVER happens when I have used the air can to make sure the nipple is clear. The only time I have this issue is when I DON'T check first. And what I find is a plugged nipple. I have 2 nipple pricks, one came with the nipple tool, the other was in the parts box I got with the used gun. It's a coiled wire on one end for a finger hold and will go down every nipple brand I have tried except the HotSHot. I have not measured it yet, but I will. Before I started using the air can to check the nipple after every shot, I was getting 2 of 5 misfires. Now it is 4 in the last 60. I am still trying to make sense of what may be the root of the issue, but I know for sure it is not the air can. I am going to change the way I swab, maybe even stop wiping to see what happens. I have tried the Balistol (yuk) the Murphys (better) and next trip will use just water or pure alcohol. As C.C. suggested, going to 3F may cure all these issues, I'll find that out when the last pound of 2f is gone and I make the run to get more powder. I am by no means disappointed or frustrated with the gun, this is a very minor issue as far as I am concerned. It may be gun specific too. I am just trying to get my head wrapped around the mechanics of it all. I am having more fun with this than I have had with any new gun I have acquired in the last 25 years, including the AI long range that I paid almost 50 times as much for.
Griz
 
Dutch Schoultz said:
Citas,
What may be causing any misfires is in your between shot WIPE. followed by a dry wiping patch.

The first wiping patch should only be damp. with NO excess moisture in it. When you pull the ramrod out, the extra cloth should bunch up around the jag head and sweep the residue from the barrel and sweep the rifling. There is no need for the send dry patch as there is no excess moisture to remove.

If your rifle has a Patent breech, any excess moisture will go in there, where the powder for your next shot will go and that wetting of the powder will certainly cause misfires.

Just a damp wiping path, closer to dry than to wet


The air can to to clear the nipple is probably a complete waste of effort compared to that back pressure.

In most rifles the hammer holds the expended cap tightly over the nipple opening and this can cause blockage as some of the residue is sent back into the niple with no otlet. Hence the value of the hot Shot nipp;e

Dutch Schoultz

Dutch, this is most understandable and logical explanation I have heard. I have been wiping twice, yes it is a patented breech. My routine will change on the next outing, we will see how it goes. The quick shot of air was not to clear the nipple, because when it was blocked the air can did not clear it, but it did let me know that it was blocked in the first place. You have given me a clue to work on. I thank you!
Griz
 
csitas said:
The only time I can remember a misfire is when I lost my chain of thought .
At 90 grains for 50 , All round ball.
LOL - yup, have the same issue. Us old codgers like to shoot and visit. That's certainly a big part of being in a club. But I would not change a single minute of it. I worked out a routine where I can keep track of where I am in a load cycle. We have a small stand next to the benches, so everything I use is on the small stand. When I wipe, I take the small wipe box and set it on the bench, and wipe. The rod goes back on the stand. Then I take the flask and measure from the stand and measure the load (90 gr for a round ball) and set the flask back on the stand, then charge the gun, placing the measure on the bench. Now the bench has wipes and the measure. Then I take a ball, patch and ball starter off the stand and start the ball. I lay the ball starter on the bench. Then I take the range rod off the stand and seat the ball. I lay the rod on the bench. Now I have the wipes, the measure, the ball starter, and the rod on the bench. I know each task is completed in the right order. I move all the stuff back to the stand and move the gun from the vertical stand to the benchtop. It's ready to shoot after a cap is placed. Sometimes that may take a minute or two, sometimes it may take a half hour depending on "distractions". But knock on a wood benchtop.... I have not (yet) dryballed or misloaded the gun.
Griz
 
When you swab with the jag and patch, the patch should be somewhat loose. That way when you push the patch down the barrel it goes over the fouling and like Dutch said the patch then bunches up and will pull the fouling out rather than push it into the patient breech.
 
Mooman76 said:
When you swab with the jag and patch, the patch should be somewhat loose. That way when you push the patch down the barrel it goes over the fouling and like Dutch said the patch then bunches up and will pull the fouling out rather than push it into the patient breech.
OK, so the rifle is a 50 cal, the jag I use is a standard 50 cal jag (A thompson I think). Next size down I have is a 45 cal. Too small? I do have a spare 50 cal jag, and am not opposed to putting it on the wheel to thin it down some. The 50 jag reads at .471 (bare) and .485 with a patch. A 45 jag reads at .385. Any suggestions on an optimum size for this?
Griz
 
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