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Login Name Post: Hawken vs Long Rifle        (Topic#305630)
Wes/Tex 
Cannon
Posts: 7787
Wes/Tex
12-07-17 04:21 PM - Post#1655693    

    In response to Rifleman1776

I've never heard of or seen a two piece barrel...that's certainly novel. Can't say it'd inspire me with confidence. Those odd looking things did win their share of matches against some really nice originals and copies of originals...broke a few rich guy's hearts! you know what the say, "Beauty is in the eyes of the bee holder!"

https://photos.prnewswire.com/prnvar/20150915/266726

 
THE SAVAGE 
32 Cal.
Posts: 30
12-07-17 04:47 PM - Post#1655704    

    In response to Wes/Tex

Yep mine was CVA Kentucky got old bets in 70 from j&c Pennys she shot good had 22 target sights on her I put on won 20 dollars one time 70 gr and maxi ball twas lees still has it hit a pocket watch at 75 yards My daddy twas there one of his friends lost the bet

 
Col. Batguano 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3135
12-07-17 04:52 PM - Post#1655705    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

There are a few LR's that are "right" as cap guns, but not that many. Bedfords for instance. Don't hear of many builders making them either.

 
nessmuk 
40 Cal.
Posts: 138
12-07-17 08:14 PM - Post#1655734    

    In response to DDH

Get both.

 
Cowboy 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1824
Cowboy
12-07-17 08:30 PM - Post#1655737    

    In response to DDH

I personally own several of both types. I personally have no preference or leaning to one type over the other. As for me, the same could be said about flintlock or percussion. Both types of rifles have a very special place in my heart. Both types of ignition systems as well!

I’m a sucker for a close to authentic looking Hawken Rifle. It definitely has a beauty of its own. I own a GRRW Hawken, Sharon Hawken, Another Pedersoli RMH, Don Stith Hawken, to include a couple of GPR’s. These I consider to be close copies of the Hawken Rifle’s. Also own my share of CVA and TC Guns but I’m not talking about them.

On the other hand I also own both production and custom Longrifle’s as well in a wide variety of caliber’s. I also have a special place in my heart for them as well!

In conclusion, I can’t give you any opinion leaning towards any one type or ignition system on them.

I will say though, that I personally like a Flintlock on a Longrifle which would be a full stock. Percussion for a Plains type Rifle and would be half stock. This is what I personally prefer in my muzzleloader’s. To each his own my friend! There’s no wrong or right answer here for you.

Respectfully, Cowboy
Remember those who served, those who are, and those who will in the future! God Bless America!


 
Colorado Clyde 
Cannon
Posts: 15106
Colorado Clyde
12-07-17 11:03 PM - Post#1655752    

    In response to nessmuk

  • nessmuk Said:
Get both.



Always the best answer....


 
Smokey Plainsman 
45 Cal.
Posts: 983
Smokey Plainsman
12-07-17 11:34 PM - Post#1655754    

    In response to Colorado Clyde

  • Quote:
Not me....I didn't start shooting muzzleloaders because I wanted something that was similar to what I was already shooting......I wanted something new and exciting.....Something different. Black powder,round balls , using a powder horn and a ramrod.....I get the same feeling now as I did back then when I think about it... I wanted something like Davey Crocket.



Well thar's a generalization.

Nothing from keeping someone from using a ramrod, horn, pouch, the same things used traditionally with the longer pieces from back east. The old timers sure used the same thing with their "neat Hawkins guns" as it were.



Now today, the word "Hawken" doesn't mean what it used to. Now it's just a catch all for basically any half stock sidelock gun, oft of the caplock variety but also available in flint (a rare combination in the old days). It is a coloqueilism for what has been called a "plains rifle" in collectors circles.

The true Hawken rifle was made by none other than Jake and Sam Hawken, in St. Louis. Their plains rifles were renowned for high quality. One can think of it is how we use "Kleenex" to refer to all tissues. Many, many companies make plains rifle style guns and slap "Hawken" on to it. It sells, people know that name.

Interestingly the gun above, the Lyman Great Plains Rifle, is and never was referred to as a "Hawken rifle" by Lyman, even though it's much closer to the real deal as some of the other brands that choose to use the name.

Edited by Smokey Plainsman on 12-07-17 11:38 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
hadden west 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2259
hadden west
12-08-17 07:49 AM - Post#1655767    

    In response to Smokey Plainsman

Plains rifle, would probably better describe most half stock rifles. Although, there was a lot of variation even within the Hawken rifles themselves.

Full stock Hawkens and early Hawkens, or even the Kit Carson, only share some of the same characteristics.

I am in a shooting club, with Don Stith, who is one of the most knowledgeable persons on the Hawken rifles. His kits are copied off of original Hawken rifles.


 
hadden west 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2259
hadden west
12-08-17 07:55 AM - Post#1655769    

    In response to DDH

Choosing a gun for hunting in Oklahoma would probably differ, from one used in eastern hunting.

I use a Tip Curtis, Late Virginia, with a swamped barrel, in 50 cal. It is very light and balances perfectly. However, it is not a good choice when hunting from a tree stand. Mostly walk and stalk.

I use a half stock, mostly for stand hunting.

Target shooting could be either.

Gotta have both.

 
54ball 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2632
54ball
12-08-17 08:17 AM - Post#1655773    

    In response to Rifleman1776

CVA had 2 piece stocks but I'm pretty sure they never used 2 piece barrels. The was Hi-Standard and other brand names that imported that stuff from Japan.
CVA opened in 1971 and I do believe they used American components the first few years.

 
DDH 
32 Cal.
Posts: 22
DDH
12-08-17 08:17 AM - Post#1655774    

    In response to hadden west

Appreciate all the replies!

 
crockett 
Cannon
Posts: 6351
12-08-17 10:09 AM - Post#1655792    

    In response to hadden west

Depends on what part of Oklahoma- eastern area has woods.
Oh, one more thing...
On cleaning, a lot of the half stock Hawkens have a hooked breech, you can remove the barrel from the stock for cleaning- might be a factor in making a decision.

 
CO Elkeater 
45 Cal.
Posts: 683
CO Elkeater
12-08-17 11:06 AM - Post#1655802    

    In response to DDH

  • DDH Said:
Which style do you think performs better at target and hunting? Which do you find more pleasant to shoot. Just looking for opinions. Might get a new gun for Christmas!



My 50" barrel is slightly more accurate. It is the newest to me; will hunt prairie goats soon. The 26" is with me when hunting in the mountains.
Like most here I like to play with both. They are .54 percussian.

Edited by CO Elkeater on 12-08-17 11:14 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rdstrain49 
40 Cal.
Posts: 460
12-08-17 01:24 PM - Post#1655827    

    In response to crockett

Cleaning a hooked breech was at one time easier for me than a pinned barrel. Now that I have switched to Dutch's "nearly waterless cleaning system" there is no difference regarding ease of cleaning.

Edited by rdstrain49 on 12-08-17 01:26 PM. Reason for edit: omissions and spell check

 
Smokey Plainsman 
45 Cal.
Posts: 983
Smokey Plainsman
12-08-17 05:53 PM - Post#1655899    

    In response to rdstrain49

Is this the one where he sprays Water Displacement No. 40 down barrel?

 
Dutch Schoultz 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1093
12-08-17 08:04 PM - Post#1655921    

    In response to rdstrain49

EDstrain,
How easy was it to clean your pinned in place long rifle barrel?
My dang neardry waterless method is much easier than the Hot soap Water method used by so many.
/
Pf yo arereal real careful with my so called 995 Waterless method you might drag the process out to maybe 4 minutes.

Would liketolearn your long rifle method.

Dutch Schoultz

 
Dutch Schoultz 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1093
12-09-17 07:08 AM - Post#1655983    

    In response to Dutch Schoultz

My efforts to encourage posted stories of the recent deer hunting adventures may have succeeded but I would;t know that if the word Dutch was not included as that is what my limited vision allows me to read. Knowing what a responsive crowd checks on the Forum daily I have been trying to think of a prize to give the best story.
Having given all my equipments away I have little of interest to offer.
I have been toying with the idea of a spiral bound printed copy of literary efforts, Autogrphed for and additional cheap thrill
I will continue to think of an incentive

 
Dutch Schoultz 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1093
12-09-17 07:30 AM - Post#1655986    

    In response to Dutch Schoultz

Here's a Hunting related story where no real hunting occurred.
This guy thought it was bwst to always hunt with someone so this year he agreed to go with a man he didn't know very well at all but hunters were all in a sort of brotherhood
So the two of them are headed into toward the wooded areas ofMissouri with him driving and the not well known companion in the front seat of the e vehicle holding his rifle upright between his knees as they traveled past farms and other rural scenes. After a while the new companion was pointing his rifle out the window and aiming at various does in the fields they were passing. "Pow, pow" the guy was saying as he "dry fired" at his targets. Tham BAM! the rifle "Got him," the guy said and there was a cow in some distress struggling in a nearby field.
This beyond belief and the driver didn't know what todo, He continued to drive while his companion raved about his great shot.
He had suspected this new guy was a bit high on something possibly booze or even drugs and he didn't want to offend this lunatic so he began making sounds of being ill and then with many apiligies said he was too ill to continue driving further and really had to turn back toward home. Which he did and was able to free himself from this possible lunatic. Thought of all the rules of behavior this guy had broken without even thinking of the legal adventures that could have resulted.
From then on he always hunted alone or with old friends who weren't even slightly drunk/

Dutch




 
Critter Getter 
45 Cal.
Posts: 621
12-09-17 09:35 AM - Post#1656007    

    In response to DDH

I have both styles. I prefer the longrifles but own a bunch of the Hawken/ Plaines style rifles. Both styles are both accurate and reliable so it just comes down to looks and personal preference. I think I may sell off some of my short rifles but don't have any percussion long rifles that I will be parting with anytime soon! Greg

 
Flint62Smoothie 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1457
Flint62Smoothie
12-09-17 11:48 AM - Post#1656021    

    In response to Critter Getter

One thing I do like on the Hawken, mountain rifle or any rifle, half-stock or not, with a hooked breech is that they are soooooooo durn easy to clean!

Pull the barrel, drop the end in water w/ a elixir of choice or not, pull water up & through from the patched jag ... and presto - CLEAN! Then dry & oil of course.

... not that cleaning full-stocked longrifles is a chore, as to me it’s not...
All my MZLs will shoot into a ragged ~1/2" hole ALL DAY LONG... it's just the 2nd & 3rd shots that open the group!


 
Walkingeagle 
32 Cal.
Posts: 36
12-09-17 01:22 PM - Post#1656037    

    In response to Dutch Schoultz

Dutch,
Not a recent, or even a deer story, but it is true and factual.
Many years ago I aquired myself a .50 GPR flint kit and spent the winter tinkering away at assembling. Once completed I spent the spring and summer trying so hard to master the flintlock, to no success. That fall I positioned myself for a mule deer by snuggling into a small hollow in some diamond willows. Shortly out steps my deer and walks by broadside at under 20 yards. I missed...
Fast forward a few years and still working to master the flint, when I decided to try for a nice color phase black bear that was hitting a bait I set for a friend. I settle in against a fallen log 12 yards away, and slightly above the bait. Suddenly I see from my perifriel vision a small black eyeing the bait 4 feet to my left. Not sure who jumped higher as we both startled each other. Anyhow I settled back down and waited. After a bit my color phase bear showed and I laid the muzzle end of the flinter on the toes of my boots to minimize bbl movement from my flinch as I still had no luck mastering the flint. Anyhow the bear gave me the shot and I took it, he spun and took off into the thick stuff. After waiting a bit I started on his trail on my hands and knees when I thought I could hear him abead heading for the river bank. I ran tothe bank and looked over hoping for a glimpse and a shot before he made the water. You should have seen my surprise when I was peering over the edge and he stood up right beside to, to my left. I spun, placed the muzzle of the gun on (thats right, on) his right shoulder and fired! I would love to say he dropped, but as with life he ran down the bank then dropped, forcing me to work even harder to get him out. Thats the one and only game animal to fall to my flintlock.
Walkingeagle


 
Dutch Schoultz 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1093
12-09-17 09:20 PM - Post#1656099    

    In response to Walkingeagle

Walking EWagle,
That is one hell of a story.
I think if I found myself standing next to a bear of any size I would have broken olympic speed records running away.


My Dad used to tell me bear stories and claimed a scar on his arm was from a bear event near Boseman, Montana where he was employed at a barber in a shop offering baths for 10 cents just like in the old western movies..

We kids were never sure about that scar story.

Dutch Schoultz

 
AZbpBurner 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1738
AZbpBurner
12-10-17 12:17 AM - Post#1656115    

    In response to DDH

  • DDH Said:
Which style do you think performs better at target and hunting? Which do you find more pleasant to shoot. Just looking for opinions. Might get a new gun for Christmas!



If you want a capable first gun to become accustomed to shoot, the Lyman/Investarms Deerstalker is an excellent choice. It may get you derision from the snooty purists, with it's rubber buttpad & nowhere near authentic styling, but it is easy to shoot and maintain & has the potential to be amazingly accurate, and very comfortable to shoot all day.

I grew up shooting an assortment of original rifles, and already had several percussion and flint rifles, when I found my Lyman Deerstalker. They quit listing the lefthanded .54 cal. flint model in the Lyman catalog, a few years ago, but a vendor had one on-line, so I bought it.
Break-in was quick and working up an accurate load was also quick and painless. Accuracy was sufficient, that it became my 'Grapefruit Slayer', excelling at dispatching the bags of excess grapefruit from my parents' trees. At 100 yards, no grapefruit was safe, and when the ranch was sold & grapefruit were no more, clay pigeons, or small water balloons suffice.

Some of the snootier shooters at my range asked me why I bothered with that "cheap, old fashioned junk". After successively busting a line of a dozen grapefruit at the 100 yard berm, the only questions became: " Hey, can I try it?"

.54 cal is preferred. It seems easier to work up accurate loads and the heavier ball retains more energy at 100 yards than my .50 cal's.

You'll go on to get other, fancier & pricier guns in the future, but the Deerstalker will give you a solid foundation for shooting either flint or percussion that will carry over to everything else you'll ever shoot.


 
Dutch Schoultz 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1093
12-12-17 07:04 AM - Post#1656446    

    In response to Dutch Schoultz

I thought Walking Eagle's stort had stopped all reports of hunting experiences, but under the heading of
My Black Powder Hunting 2017 there are all sorts of stories..

Worth reading Both educational and sometimes amusing,

Dutch

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 7913
tenngun
12-12-17 09:25 AM - Post#1656463    

    In response to AZbpBurner

I will be simi-snooty I would say go with the GPR as it has a lot of traditional styling but enough modern features to provide a good platform for a new shooter. A TC Hawken if you can find one would be #2

 
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