400 Yard Group

What is your best group at a bench with a muzzleloader at 400 yards or longer. What kind of gun and bullet?

It would be interest to know how these ML guns do at longer ranges.

I shoot long range with muzzle loaders, but not from bench. Out to 600 yards is prone with just a sling for support. Beyond that (we shoot out to 1200 yards) a wrist rest may also be used.

I have an article on line which includes test results from 1857 comparing Whitworth and Enfield rifles fired from a rest. Ranges 500 - 1880 yards. See: Measuring Accuracy,

The results are given as "figure of merit", which is a mean radial measure of group size. The article explains the contemporary terminology and how to determine figure of merit.

May not be exactly what you're looking for, but may be of interest.

From the first Annual Rifle Meeting of the NRA(UK) in 1860, competitions were held out to 1000 yards.

David

I managed to hit a mountain side once at that range. Really. :grin: I was using a .45 cal. flint rifle offhand. That is a whole 'nuther story compared to a slug rifle from a rest.

have not tried past two hundred but only because of available range/shooting space, and that wasn`t really taken seriously.

That kind of range demands something with better efficiency than a PRB. A PRB at that range would have an arc like a pole vaulter. It has been done, but any little headwind variation changes the point of impact by dozens of yards.

I once went to a black powder silhouette match. The rules were open sights, black powder and patched round balls only. Well my 45 caliber did fine until the 300 yd pigs. I could hear the "ding" but the targets did not move. I switched to a 54 caliber and re -entered and was knocking the pigs down, but a gusty cross wind had come up and just hitting them was tough. I think of the 400 yd targets, I got one of 5. The only folks knocking them down reliably were shooting 58 and 62 caliber rifles.

If you go to the Lyman Black Powder hand book, and figure the velocity changes between muzzle and one hundred yards, a 40 caliber loses roughly 60% of initial velocity. A 50 caliber ball loses approx 50% of initial velocity. a 58 caliber ball loses approx 40 percent of it initial velocity and a 75 caliber loses about 25% of it's initial velocity. See the pattern? at 400 yds a 45 caliber ball has probably lost 90% of it's velocity. it is blowing around at 100 yds. hitting something other than a barn, at 400 yds is simply a prayer.

Rifleman1776 said:

I managed to hit a mountain side once at that range.

Click to expand...

I've seen guys with a howitzer MISS a mountain.

Well at least your working your way up,
Topic about 100-200,
Then 300,
Now 400,,
So what is it that we can really help you with?
History?
Practicality?
Direction to or for high cost guns to achieve above goals?
Can we help with actual practice with the guns you have?
What is it really?

From the NMLRA Rule book. The Silhouette match 5700 is the following:
SILHOUETTE
5700”“MATCH DESCRIPTION”“A match consists of 20 rounds:
4 crow targets at 50 yards
4 groundhog targets at 100 yards
4 buffalo targets at 150 yards
4 turkey targets at 175 yards
4 bear targets at 200 yards

Chickens, pigs, turkeys and rams are for a cartridge match.

Almost any muzzleloading projectile, either round ball or conical will have an arcing trajectory.

You were doing good to hit the pigs.

What sort of sight did the other competitors have that were shooting the long range targets? Must have been a lot of adjusting to go from 300 to 400 yards.

NMLRA Long Range Slug Gun Agg I is paper 300, 400 & 500 yards.
September 2017 results show top score:
400 yds - 99-3x
500 yds - 100 -4x
Same target at both distances: 4"-x, 8"-10 ring
There is also a Slug gun mid-range 100,200 & 300 somewhere.
These are 40+ lbs bench guns.

Long Range ML Silhouette - AGG OO, also matches 308, 310, 315, 316, 317, 318, 320 & 321. 200-500 yards. Traditional percussion
- think Whitworth!

All these matches listed are shooting 500gr +/- with 65-100gr BP, most 45cal.
Front rest allowed, shooter must support rear.

Need to spend some time shooting heavies in the .52 Renegade with the 38" barrel, just to see how far. It's a homemade affair cobbled together. A stock here, a barrel there, a secure clamp-on scope mount to avoid drilling holes in the barrel, rifling designed around the idea of paper patching fifty molds. I might spring for a ladder type peep sight and a full length stock (gee golly with barrel bands? op: ) dedicated to the barrel if it wrings out as well as I hope. https://imgur.com/ShMQGX2

necchi, It is not that you can help me with anything at this point. I have received plenty of help from a lot of good people and appreciate every bit of it. This is just an interest for me to see what others have done and or doing. My gun is shooting well to 400 yards. I have not shot at 500 yards yet and I now have ordered a barrel with a 1 in 18" twist to go out further than 500 yards. I have been spending a lot of time at the range, but when you have to scrape the frost off the bench, it's time to build another gun.

Just using a round ball calculator, with a 45 cal moving at 1450 fps and a 5 mile per hr. crosswind. Here is the results. If you sighted in at 200yds you would be 28.4 inches high at 100 yds. By the time it got to 300 yds. the ball would have dropped 157 inches and drifted 53 inches. By the time it reached 400 yds. it would have dropped 619.4 and drifted 106.1 inches.

Either, going to have to speed the ball up or get a very large target. So, pretty evident, that a round ball moving at 1450 fps. ain't going to do it.

Probably need a fast twist, paper patched bullet and strong gun with lots of powder.

The second to the last time at the range with a 5 mile an hour side wind. Here is the actual information for a 45 caliber, 85 grains of Swiss Powder(Swiss is hotter) than some of the other powders, 400 grain bullet, PP, plastic wad at 400 yards: 107.83" drop, 14.33" drift.

By the way that information of the groups of the two different ML's which was shown on the down load was good stuff. 12" groups at 500 yards vs 30" groups is quite a difference.

So, if my memory is correct the 500 yard mini creedmore target at Friendship has a white inner square that is 13" square. (52Bore correct me if I am wrong) The course of fire is 15 shots. There has been a couple of people that have been able to keep all 15 in the white. My best is 14 of the 15. It is not uncommon to have a group in the white and one, 2 or 3 shots just off the white by an inch or so.

The rifles are capable of shooting a tighter group, but this is off sticks and the conditions change in 45 minutes of shooting.

Fleener

That is very interesting and mighty fine shooting. I wonder what kind of group the inline Remington 700 muzzleloaders usually gets. One day I was shooting at 100 yards and the shooter next to me was also shooting at 100 yards. His groups were only two inches. For a gun like that I didn't think it was that great, but that is only one gun.

Here is one thing I do need help with. Right now I am using single wrap 24# cotton printer paper with a 1/32" gap where the paper butts together. I found if I butt them together my group opens up and I also found if I use the double wrap onion skin my group is twice the size of the single-wrap If you are looking at the butt end of the bullet, the wrap is clock wise. Is the wrap in the correct direction? I really don't want to size my bullets and I am getting a good group with the single-wrap, but that is kinda wrap as you shoot. The double-wrap stays on the bullet better. Any suggestions?

That should say I wonder what the Remington gets at 500 yards.

Great post Guys!
Please keep it going.
It is surprising to me, after many years of black powder shooting, I have never ventured past two hundred yards with round ball.
I did shoot four hundred yards with a Parker Hale Whitworth that I had. Sadly ( I traded it ) BAD mistake!
In my gun locker I do have a .50 cal. Antonio Zoli version of an English sporting rifle that shoots .50 cal. conical bullets at 100 yards.
The bullet is form fitted at the muzzle as you load it. The bullets are checkered pattern on the side of each bullet and they have lubricant imbedded in the side of each round.
Perhaps I should give it a try.
That rifle has been in the rack for twenty years gathering dust.
Fred

I have read " somewhere " can't remember where, the maximum distance a round will travel is 800 yards. That is held in a shoulder held firearm.
Can anyone verify this? Or is it hot air?
Now a bullet fired from a Whitworth firearm will surpass a mile, not much considering a .22 long rifle is considered dangerous at that distance :shocked2:
I am off topic to a degree, but is common knowledge that a bullet ( Whitworth type ) will out perform a round ball at longer distances.
Many years ago at a non populated lake a friend and I tried hitting stumps in a beaver flooded lake.
Using a .58 cal. round ball rifle and a .58 cal. Enfield, The Enfield rifle surpassed the round ball rifle in distance and proximity of hits.
We were using scopes to see the hits in the water and rare hits on a stump.(very rare)
I must admit a respectful amount of beer was consumed in this study.
More than 70 grains of powder in the Enfield resulted in very erratic points of impact.
But 65 grains of powder and a minie ball outdistanced the .58 round ball even up to 120 grains of powder.
Fred

In 1865 the NRA(UK) instigated the first of two competitions held at the extreme range of 2000 yards. They were fired with muzzle loading rifles at Gravesend in 1865 and 1866 and were for rifles not exceeding 15lbs. in weight, with any description of sights. Rests, other than mechanical ones, were permitted.

William Metford and Bristol gunmaker George Gibbs rose to the challenge. More info. on my web site here: The 2000 yard Competitions.

David

Agree, a little off topic - but good stuff.

Sandy Hook testing in the 1800's tested the maximum range for volley fire with a 45-70 gov't with 500gr projectile (vs lighter one) that reached just short of 4500 yards, I believe.

Saw Remington (actually Ultimate) ML team show up at Friendship a few years ago, representative claimed of 1.5" at 500 "all day long". I never heard so much BS in my life - only to see him fail miserably as his 1st target at 200 looked like it was shot with buckshot, I was throwing 10's & X's with my lead Paper Patch bullet and real Black Powder - I loved it. I do not know if he ever completed the AGG IH course of fire as he was real quiet after shooting his target.