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Performance Question

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Scipio

36 Cal.
Joined
Nov 9, 2017
Messages
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Guys:

Simple question so I can get a idea about how good, good is.

Given a 20" X 20" target located at 50, 75, and 100 yards; a smoothbore flintlock with a front sight only (no rear sight); your own load of patched round ball; and shooting from the standing position with no artificial support or hasty sling.

Light conditions are neutral and there is no wind. You are focused and shooting at the top of your game.

Given two sighting shots and ten shots for record, how many hits on the 20" X 20" target will you expect at 50 yards?

Given two sighting shots and ten shots for record, how many hits at 75 yards?

Given two sighting shots and ten shots for record, how many hits at 100 yards?

Thanks!

Scipio
 
100%

90%

33%


I can keep an 8" group at 60 yards with my Mike Brown fowler - blade front only and offhand. (But I use a paper rolled cartridge with the ball end dipped in beeswax). 60 yards is my maximum distance I'd try on whitetail deer. After that they start to knuckle ball a bit.

No "sighters".

No sights. :idunno: I just point it like I would a shotgun. About the same way I do my stickbow.
 
SK:

Thanks for your data. Pretty close to my estimates. Always good to know what 'good' looks like.

I know the sighting shots would be controversial but didn't want a clean vs fowled barrel thing to become a factor.

Thanks again!

Scipio
 
Me? :confused:
Probably all at 25 yards, none at 50 and somewhere in the next county at 100. :redface:
I am yet to master the 'anchor point' hold for a front sight only smoothie. And, being ill (I have an excuse) for most of the past two years I haven't done much practice.
 
Rifleman1776 said:
Me? :confused:
Probably all at 25 yards, none at 50 and somewhere in the next county at 100. :redface:
I am yet to master the 'anchor point' hold for a front sight only smoothie. And, being ill (I have an excuse) for most of the past two years I haven't done much practice.

RM76:

I believe if you can put ten of ten in a 20 " square target at 25 yards then you can put at least five of ten into a 20" target at fifty yards. That one is pure statistics.

'Anchor point' hold? I probably know it using different words but please do explain what it is and what it is supposed to accomplish.

Thank you for your response!

Scipio
 
My smoothbore has a rear sight so maybe isn't truly relevant to the question. But from what I've heard and seen from others I'd say 100%, 100% and 60%. That's best case scenario as you've outlined. :idunno:
 
I can and have shot 4" groups at 100 yards with a casual rest with a gun just as you describe, flintlock smoothbore, front sight only. I would be very disappointed and surprised if I couldn't keep all the shots on the paper, at least, at all three distances. 20" x 20" is a big target.

I only shoot offhand when I have to, it would be interesting to actually try your test to see if my confidence is warranted. :wink: I might learn that I'm wrong once again. :haha:

Maybe I'll do that on my next outing.

Spence
 
Hanshi:

Sorry, no rear sights for this question. However, I truly believe that with even the most crude rear sight that one could get over 50% at 100 yards with a smoothbore and PRB. Next smooth bore I get will have a rear sight.

Scipio
 
Spence:

Not necessarily a test. Just want to understand capabilities that are based on real performance and not theory or hearsay.

Scipio
 
Scipio said:
'Anchor point' hold? I probably know it using different words but please do explain what it is and what it is supposed to accomplish.

Scipio

The "Anchor Point Hold" means that you are putting the same spot of your cheek on the same point on the butt stock of the fowler and not moving from that spot or tilting your head. You are "anchored" to that spot and can't move. Your eye is the rear sight and you don't want your rear sight to move between shots. Learn what part of your jaw or what tooth needs to be placed in a specific position. Learn what the front sight looks like along the top of the barrel.

I regularly get humiliated at the smoothbore match at Fort de Chartres in April. Some of the shooters there will keep all their shots on a 6" by 12" board target at 30 to 40 yards.
 
Scipio said:
Not necessarily a test.
I understand, and it's an interesting question, but it won't really mean anything until shots are fired.

Spence
 
I'm with Spence and others...not really as hard as it might seem up front. What's important is that you've taken the time to test fire any smoothbore to achieve it's best performance. Then it becomes a matter of consistency with loading and hold. The 'anchor point hold' is part of consistency...you need to be at the same place on the stock each time.
Hunting fowlers are much more accurate, in my experience, than military muskets as far as smoothbore guns is concerned. A proper cheek to stock fit wasn't a priority to military institutions, they were interested in getting off shots fast and banking on percentage of hits per number of balls in the air.
One of the finest smoothbore shots I had the pleasure to meet was Dick Weller. He hunted with original Land Pattern Brown Bess, a Baker rifle and a lovely William Clark 10 gauge fowler. Dick did well because he was a bit OCD about his loading. I'm talking weighing balls, carefully hand filing off any sprue, sifting his powder through screens to perfect consistency of grain size and lubing his paper cartridges for ease of loading and proper ball size. His original India Pattern musket was a true .775" bore and he loaded cartridges with both .760" and .750" balls...the larger for the first load, smaller for follow up. Dick even inserted those two leads differently when he pushed in the cartridge's the ball. He seldom required a follow up, even on moose! .760' ball in the bellows put those big critters on the ground! Sometimes you make your own luck. :thumbsup:
 
Grenadier1758 said:
Scipio said:
'Anchor point' hold? I probably know it using different words but please do explain what it is and what it is supposed to accomplish.

Scipio

The "Anchor Point Hold" means that you are putting the same spot of your cheek on the same point on the butt stock of the fowler and not moving from that spot or tilting your head. You are "anchored" to that spot and can't move. Your eye is the rear sight and you don't want your rear sight to move between shots. Learn what part of your jaw or what tooth needs to be placed in a specific position. Learn what the front sight looks like along the top of the barrel.

I regularly get humiliated at the smoothbore match at Fort de Chartres in April. Some of the shooters there will keep all their shots on a 6" by 12" board target at 30 to 40 yards.

GD58:

Roger. Cheek and Spot Weld. Purpose is several fold. Foremost is consistency in the alignment of the sights and eyes. Second is consistency of trigger finger location. Third is maintaining the hand and eye position through recoil. Even though you aren't shooting rapid fire strings, maintaining position through the entire shot does mean better performance. Mostly because you are ensuring you are maintaining your focus through the entire shot.

As I said in a previous post, it has been twenty five or so years since I shot my flint locks but I soon realized with the Trade Gun that I must use my eyes as the rear sight so use of cheek and spot weld (Anchor Point Hold) became important again. Cheek and spot weld lost much of its value when we went to AR-15 designs of stocks that use pistol grips and adjustable butt stocks.

Thanks for the poop!

Scipio
 
Spence:

That's why I am asking you guys. Because most of you have more experience than I with smooth bore flint lock blasting.

I can hold the target size at 50 yards without an issue. I can hold the target size about 60% of the time at 75 yards. I have yet to try 100 yards but that will happen in due time.

Scipio
 
Scipio said:
That's why I am asking you guys. Because most of you have more experience than I with smooth bore flint lock blasting.
It's just a guess, but I'd be very much surprised if many shooters on this board who use flintlock smoothbores with no rear sights have any experience shooting at 75 and 100 yards offhand. I don't, and I have more confidence at longer distances with smoothbores than most, at least if you believe what others report in discussing smoothbore capabilities in their hands. A large percentage of such shooters believe round balls from smoothbores take a sharp right or left turn at about 60 yards, regardless of what load you use, so why shoot further than that. :grin:

Spence
 
George said:
Scipio said:
That's why I am asking you guys. Because most of you have more experience than I with smooth bore flint lock blasting.
It's just a guess, but I'd be very much surprised if many shooters on this board who use flintlock smoothbores with no rear sights have any experience shooting at 75 and 100 yards offhand. I don't, and I have more confidence at longer distances with smoothbores than most, at least if you believe what others report in discussing smoothbore capabilities in their hands. A large percentage of such shooters believe round balls from smoothbores take a sharp right or left turn at about 60 yards, regardless of what load you use, so why shoot further than that. :grin:

Spence


That is EXACTLY my experience. Though I do take the occasional long shot. Same with my stickbows (no sights). I hunt to 25 yards but practice to 80 yards (NFAA longest target) and occasionally beyond.

But that's just for fun.

I have a 40# propane cylinder hanging on a chain on the far side of a creek and I will lob balls at that with my smooth fowler just to see if I can "ring" it. It's about 12" wide and 30" high.

"Torso" size.

On a good day I can do 3 for 3 at about 75 yards. Always standing offhand.

But I have shot a Bess and now this fowler for 25+ years and it's the only smoothbore flintlock I own. I'm pretty familiar with it, and Mike Brooks built it to fit my measurements. I grouse hunt with it (shot - as a handicap) and only take them on the wing. As they say: it's a part of me.
 
Best at 50-yds was a ~4", 5-shot group, pretty much 6" if 'on'. And w/ same 48" barreled 62-cal club butt musket I can usually hit the 12" gong @ 100-yds at least every 3rd or 4th shot, or better. So I'd say I'd hit that 20" square target everytime.

FWIW I always keep it out & pick it up & cheek it & dry fire it (wooden flints) 2 to 3 or more times a week. Plus I only shoot offhand (less load development) and also shoot an Olympic quality air rifle at minimum 50 pellets per week.

On my best black powdah season I shot 8-pounds in a year ... pre-kids, haha!

Trigger time and muscle memory is key IMHO.
 
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