wierd iginition problem

I have to figure this out.

This is a rifle I built.....1810 Gillespie with a Davis common lock...1/16 drilled vent on a 44 inch swamped barrel.

I'm a reenactor and this rifle has seen a lot of blank fire in living history demos. It functions very well with rammed paper cartridges.

I grade it on shooting blanks as an.....A as far as reliability and ignition.


Load a patched ball....same rifle same load the grade is D - just to get it to light and a F as far as a viable hunting rifle.
:hmm:
Thoughts?

How far ahead of the face of the breechblock is the touchhole?

Spence

Spence when I laid it out, I set it up for a 1/4 inch liner so....1/8 inch ahead of the breech.

What's the caliber?

Powder Charge?

Is there a chamber in the breech plug?

Where is the ball with respect to the touch hole?

If you pick the touch hole after loading the charge and the ball, do you feel powder or does the pick touch the ball?

Can you remove the liner to take a look?

Grenadier already asked the questions i was going to ask. Are you using the same powder? same prime?

this is indeed an intriguing puzzle. :hmm:

The barrel is .54 caliber C wt Colerain.
The vent is a simple drilled hole 1/16

This rifle does well with paper blanks....70-90 grains of 3f and 2f for prime and load. No picking.....just prime load and shoot. I do ram down a paper cartridges on top of the powder sometimes pretty hard....unless there is opposing forces then just powder alone.

With a patched ball.....just about guaranteed a pan flash. Pick....still a pan flash.....If I grossly overprime it will finallly shoot. Now this is in front of others. Like at a sight in session.

At home I have loaded the dang thing and shot it all by my lonesome and it shot well. With an audience it shows out.

Maybe it just seems that way. :idunno:

Last session.....

With a patched ball..poor ignition.

I even shot 3 blanks in a row.....perfect.
Load a patched ball ...panflash.

Grenadier1758 said:

What's the caliber?.54

Powder Charge? 70-90 grns in blanks....80 with ball. I used 2f and 3f....used Jacks Powder then some Goex and finally some Swiss. Priming with either 2 or 3 f. Shoots well with blanks no matter what prime is used. Shoots poor with ball no matter what prime is used.

Is there a chamber in the breech plug?flat faced standard plug

Where is the ball with respect to the touch hole? Nope vent is 1/8 off the plug face

If you pick the touch hole after loading the charge and the ball, do you feel powder or does the pick touch the ball? pick touches powder but seems more compacted with patched ball.

Can you remove the liner to take a look?

Click to expand...

simple drilled hole

Try loading with a soft wire pick nearly the same OD as the flash hole, in place. Remove the wire pick and prime as you do with the blanks.
I bet it will now work reliably.

There has to be something that is blocking the flash channel when you load a ball that doesn't block the channel when you fire blanks. Could there be a burr left from drilling the touch hole? The blanks wouldn't necessarily disturb it but a charge with a ball just might.

I would try to find someone with an endoscope to take a good look at the bore side of your touch hole. The nest step for me if a bore scope isn't available would be to pull the breech plug and relieve the entry into the barrel as best you can. I used a through touch hole on my 1803 Harper's Ferry and I coned the inside from the barrel toward the pan. I get very quick ignition. My tool of choice was a small diameter diamond bur. You need to find out what is blocking your flash channel.

What are you doing differently at home that you are not doing when you demonstrating live fire function?

It is possible that putting the touch hole sized pick might move whatever is blocking the channel out of the way and help to improve good ignition.

I think M.D. and I are on the same page. I was going to suggest the same thing.
I made a "pick" from a 3" piece of coat hanger wire. Tapered it over a long enough taper that when the thickness equals the flash hole diameter, it stops the tip just so very slightly short of the opposite barrel wall. Since I started plugging the flash hole every time I load the gun, not pulling the wire until I prime the pan, I've gotten no misfires/panflash without ignition.
I'm wondering if the compression of your powder charge when you seat a ball is the issue. Will leaving a "void" for the flash to entire (and have access to the entire width of the charge) fix the problem?

For a touch hole pick, I like a fine wire to make a narrow "chimney" into the charge. Too much picking can actually push the powdah away from the touch hole.

I would either put an internal cone around your direct vent touch hole or install a white lightning liner.

Very odd issue indeed :hmm: Like a car that will only start with the trunk open half way, the gas cap loosened and the right blinker on. One difference in charges is paper that may allow air from the muzzle end of the barrel to be sucked back, and a PRB that seals the air. Maybe, just for kicks, try a tow/ball?

Guns are like children, very individual. Some times we get an autistic gun, way more individual. Once ya get this figured out we will all more than likely be astonished at the simplicity of the issue. Keep us posted.

Brokennock said:

I'm wondering if the compression of your powder charge when you seat a ball is the issue.

Click to expand...

That was my immediate reaction, too. Compression from seating the ball appears to be the only real difference between blanks and ball.

As for working fine at home, but not in front of witnesses? Must be voodoo.

Try loading with a soft wire pick nearly the same OD as the flash hole, in place. Remove the wire pick and prime as you do with the blanks.
I bet it will now work reliably.

Click to expand...

:thumbsup: I agree. You can try even a toothpick, just don't snap off the tip in the touch hole.

LD

There has to be something that is blocking the flash channel when you load a ball that doesn't block the channel when you fire blanks.

Click to expand...

Yes. Is it a Nock style breech that needs to be filled before a ball is seated on top of it? :hmm: Meaning a loose blank charge might come up high enough to shoot but a ball pushes the powder down and is blocking the touch hole. Jussa thought.

54ball said:

I have to figure this out.

This is a rifle I built.....1810 Gillespie with a Davis common lock...1/16 drilled vent on a 44 inch swamped barrel.

I'm a reenactor and this rifle has seen a lot of blank fire in living history demos. It functions very well with rammed paper cartridges.

I grade it on shooting blanks as an.....A as far as reliability and ignition.


Load a patched ball....same rifle same load the grade is D - just to get it to light and a F as far as a viable hunting rifle.
:hmm:
Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Install a Chambers liner and be done with it :v .

Thanks all :hatsoff:

I'm going to try a feather. Many old rifles have a feather hole in the bottom of the buttstock between the toe and the guard. Basically use the feather as a pick when loading.

The main thing is to get the rifle firing realibly now and it should improve with time. My experience with drilled vent guns is they can be finicky at first and improve with time.

A soft wire pick left in the flash hole clear through to the other barrel wall when loading, leaves a clear channel all the way through the compacted main charge for the hot gas from the pan ignition to penetrate through a clear channel and ignite the powder from the center.
There is much more surface area for the pan flash to ignite than when a bit of the main charge is plugging the flash hole even though a bit closer to pan flash.
When you consider the diameter of the pan flash in relation to the slight difference in distance it has to travel to impact powder I think it obviously a mute point.
I know liners are a great idea but long before they were used routinely a simple flash hole was all that was needed.
Actually liners were originally invented to repair eroded flash holes.
The other benefit of using a soft wire plug is that it acts as a safety by blocking the flash hole as one loads the arm.
One more thing. Leave the end of the soft wire pick a hemisphere. It will push fouling out of the way easier than a sharp point and will not harm the opposite barrel wall or ream the flash hole larger as it is softer than barrel steel.

I'm with ZUG on this one.....drill and tap for a white lightning touch hole liner. A coned liner is just like having a funnel on the inside of the chamber. Your pan power is really close to the main charge.