Low cost Brown Bess Short Land Rifle?

I'm searching for a low cost option for a Brown Bess Flintlock Short Land Rifle that has an overall length of 58". The expensive one for sale by Pedersoli, while very nice is just out of my budget.

I found one for sell by a company called Veteran Arms in the link below. I understand that these rifles are made in India and while several sources claim that the barrels can explode, in my research so far, I haven't found one user who own's one, claiming to have any barrel failures. Veteran Arm's offer's a service free of charge, were the barrel will undergo proofing in house, however this will delay shipping.

The price is not that much more than the price of the Traditions Kentucky flintlock kit that I'm also considering.

Speaking of Traditions, wasn't there the same claim about their barrels in the past?

I owned a Traditions Hawking rifle in the early 2000's and never had any problems with the rifle, or it's barrel.

Here's the link:
http://veteranarms.com/ReproductionMuzzleloadersandFlintlocks/1769-Short-Land-Brown-Bess.html

Hopefully, I'll get some good reports back, I really want a Brown Bess.

I've got no history with Veteran Arms but have dealt with Loyalist Arms & Repairs. They're in Canada but can ship directly to the U.S. and I know they have a working arrangement with the better Indian makers for the best products. Theirs is currently about $40 cheaper as well. :2

Wes/Tex said:

I've got no history with Veteran Arms but have dealt with Loyalist Arms & Repairs. They're in Canada but can ship directly to the U.S. and I know they have a working arrangement with the better Indian makers for the best products. Theirs is currently about $40 cheaper as well. :2

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Thank you so much for the information. I was just checking out their Short Land model, she's a beauty, isn't she?

The only thing that concern's me about Loyalist Arms is that they offer no type of warranty unlike Veteran Arms. But having an end user vouch for their products is comforting. I take it that you own one of their Brown Bess rifles and if so, have you put a lot of real ball rounds down range with no safety concerns and issues?

I must also go on record by stating that I would like to participate in British military reenactments in the future, provided that I can find a unit and events close to me (I live near Cincinnati). I would imagine that there's even less of a chance of a failure when in reenactments, as there's no ball in the barrel, thus, hot gases and pressure escapes effortlessly provide that you adhere to safety and do not overcharge.

Had one briefly but gave it to my step-son. It was fine for what it is. Most of the failed Indian guns were severely overloaded and two were accidentally or stupidly loaded with smokeless powder. If you contact Loyalist Armes, talk to Blair, he can answer any questions.

If you are seriously interested in joining a British re-enacting group, then you may wish to wait till you've contacted them and see if they recommend or require a specific type or make of gun for their groups. Requirements can vary between organizations. It's known that the Short Land Pattern wasn't issued or even available to some regiments serving in North America, which is why I recommend you find a group first and see what they are using. Good luck.

Mojave,

This is excellent advice from Wes/Tex, to find the Unit you want to join and THEN buy the gun that the Unit approves of.

The one thing you really need in a flint musket for reenacting is a good sparking lock that does not have SOFT parts in it like the steel/frizzen, tumbler and sear. An already existing British Unit can help you with that.

I am hoping Loyalist Dave see's this thread as he can make some recommendations on what company to buy an Indian Bess from and may also be able to give you some contacts on British Units in Ohio.

I used to be in contact with a "Coy" (period British term for a Company) of the Black Watch in Ohio, but am not sure if they are still doing reenacting as so many of us are now too long in the tooth.

Gus

There are reenactment groups that don't allow Indian made arms so check on any units you may want to join. There have been a few barrel failures of Indian muskets firing blank charges though user error may have been involved.

Well, I am not Loyalist Dave, but I have the Loyalist Arms Long Land Pattern Musket, Dublin Castle unbridled lock. While I mostly shoot blanks for reenacting, I also shoot ball for woods walks and for occasional target shooting. While it is several pounds heavier than the short land pattern offered by Pedersoli, it is a satisfactory gun. Several Loyalist Arms, most with the bridled locks, are used in my unit and these are reliable guns.

I have yet to see a Veteran Arms product, but I do appreciate the fact that they will test fire the gun and they do some lock work to assure function. Don't confuse a test firing for a proof test. Certainly a proof test with all the required measurements and site certifications could not be a free test. If I were to purchase a gun from Veteran Arms, I would pay for the test firing and lock tuning.

Yep, saw it.

First, it's a musket, not a rifle. No worries as it's a common mistake for a new person, and we were all once "the new guy". :wink: The difference is the barrel is smooth, while a rifle has grooves that spin the bullet to stabilize it over much longer distances and exceed the capability of the musket. The musket in it's heyday had a bayonet and was very fast to reload.

IF you want to reenact the AWI or F&I, and you're not dealing with a unit that requires a Pedersoli or Japanese Bess, then avoid the 2nd Model aka the Short Land Pattern (SLP) in my opinion. The SLP is wrong for F&I, and was in limited numbers here in America during the AWI.

I'd suggest you contact all of the sellers and ask about "warranty" information, and not rely on what you read or don't read in the websites. :grin:

A little bit about "proofing" . (Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine). Veteran Arms nor any of the other importer/makers of Bess muskets CANNOT PROOF any of their guns, PERIOD. They can do all sorts of "testing" of their barrels, BUT to be legally correct to say one has "proofed" a barrel, one has to send that barrel to an official "proof house" overseas, since there are no proof houses in the United States. When the proofing is completed and the barrel is returned..., it will have a stamp in the metal called a "proof mark". Likewise, although you may be given instructions on how to "proof" your barrel yourself from some importers/makers..., or from some site on the internet..., sorry, you are performing a "test" not doing proofing.

To date, I know of ONE Bess musket barrel that ruptured.
I have seen evidence of several Civil War Enfield Rifled Muskets with barrels that ruptured during live firing. Unfortunately, the persons producing the evidence for the CW rifles didn't provide the name of the importer in every case. In two cases they were proofed barrels, though they were not Pedersoli.

I have purchased products from Loyalist Arms in Canada. I have bought five, and still own four of them. They work very well, and while they are not as well done as custom gun, nor as well done as Pedersoli, the chief complaint is the stock wood is not correct. They have specific sources for their muskets which are exclusive. There are members on this forum in England and in Germany who own Loyalist Arms muskets, AND have by law sent the barrels to their respective proofing houses, and all passed. (BTW the English and German proof houses have higher standards than the Italian proof house where Pedersoli sends its barrels.)

I have used and worked on Middlesex Village Trading Company muskets, and they work well. I have seen a greater variation from one musket to the next, so It's better (imho) if you can look at the MVTC musket before you buy it, rather than simply ordering it online.

Veteran Arms has some good items that I've seen and handled as well.

I don't buy from any of the other importers/makers. I like my musket to come "ready to shoot" from the importer/maker so it has the touch hole drilled.

What you get when you buy from the above is a musket that will fit into the time frame from the F&I through the AWI (OR earlier depending on the model). You save more than 1/2 the cost of the Pedersoli. The India-origin muskets are robust and will take a pounding. Replacement parts though can be a problem as like the original Bess, they are not standard, and so must be fitted, and because of the wood they are heavier than the Pedersoli products.

What you get with the Pedersoli is a lighter musket or trade gun with walnut stock or maple stock, interchangeable parts, and a barrel that has been to the Italian proof house. Wood to metal fit is normally quite good, although in recent years Pedersoli quality control has gone down (imho) while prices have gone up.

So there in a very large nutshell you have it.

LD

Hi,
I used to own a couple of indian muskets, a Brown Bess and an AnIX.

For reenactment are OK, but for firing not so much...
First, bore diameters are not exact to the caliber.
Second, always had looooong delays in firing the main charge.
Third: wood quality and fittings were horrible (you get what you pay for).
Fouth: barrel diameters are not even consistent. A friend has an ANIX and the barrel diameter in the first 1/3 is larger than the rest...yes, the rifle has a conical bore.....

If you just want to reenact and go boom without special accuracy concerns, go for it...but if you want accuracy, avoid them.

From which provider did you buy?

LD

Mojave said:

Speaking of Traditions, wasn't there the same claim about their barrels in the past?

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No!...........

CVA had a problem with modern inline barrels and issued a recall....other makers like Thompson Center have also issued recalls....
Recalls are good because it tells you manufacturers are tracking their mistakes...
Recalling an India made musket would be difficult...Food for thought....Remember India made muskets leave India as a non-functioning firearm.

ALL ARE JUNK. they are all made in india. how much is your life worth. you can buy a used pedrosolie for the same money. check out all the forums and sites.

The India made muskets as sold by Loyalist Arms, Veterans Arms and Middlesex Village are functioning firearms.

There are other India made muskets that are not sold with a touch hole and are not functioning firearms. These are indeed wall hangers. I will have to admit that I wouldn't want to buy an India assembled flintlock that I would have to drill a touch hole and "proof".

Hi Mojave,
If you are serious about re-enacting British units you should wait until you are involved with a unit before buying the gun. Google "Brigade of the American Revolution" and you should be able to find links to units with members near you. If you do F&I War or Pontiac's Rebellion events, you should have a long land pattern musket, although I believe many units allow a short land Bess despite the fact that they are not correct. If you do Rev war events you might need a short land musket but if you are a grenadier, you may need a long land. If you do War of 1812 events, you may need a short land or India pattern gun. For any Bess other than a short land pattern you really only have 2 choices, an India-made gun or a custom made one.

dave

Hi,
A local dealer purchased them from Albion Small Arms (ASA closed a long time ago)...and now I don´t know which is the supplier in UK.

Those weapons passed the firing proof in UK and were marked with proofhouse stamps + max load, if I can remember was 10g BP + 36g bullet.

My Brown Bess was marked 12ga and the AnIX was 16ga.....but my friend´s AnIX conical bore :grin: is supposed to be 16ga but the bore size is .65 and the .67 balls I used for mine were too large for his

everyone rags on the India made guns, I guess they never saw the smoothbores in the70's Belgium made and Ultra-HI.India guns have handmade locks and can be tuned to have decent trigger pulls. I have had a few and they all sparked well.I don't believe you will have a problem if you use a reasonable powder charge and always seat your ball or shot on the powder charge. I do agree that a used Pedersoli is the way to go, but I understand about just starting out and most of us started at the bottom.
Good luck
Nit Wit

you can buy a used pedrosolie for the same money. check out all the forums and sites.

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Well then why don't you point the OP to such a musket?

I'm sorry sir, I do check the forums and sites, and you cannot simply find a used Pedersoli for the same price whenever you wish. I not only look for "Bess" I also look for "musket" since some people don't really know what they have ....haven't been able to find them at the same cost as the India origin muskets for many years.

BTW a used Pedersoli is NOT necessarily equal in any manner to a new Pedersoli or even a well maintained Pedersoli. It was proofed once, it does not mean it is safe to fire now. I am currently restoring a used Jap Bess, and they weren't even proofed..., it's going to need a gunsmith inspection of the bore..., but by the outside you couldn't tell there might be a problem.

Here are today's results....

GunsAmerica:
ZERO

Collectors Firearms:
Sometimes they offer repros ..., ZERO
GunsInternational.com
Sometimes sell repros ...., ZERO

Armslist
ZERO

Gunbroker:
has a Bess "carbine" for $900 plus shipping. Sold "as is" so if the barrel is bad or the lock has some screwed up parts, the buyer is also screwed, AND Pedersoli no longer sells replacement barrels and the parts are not necessarily cheap..., not to mention it's not the right musket for anything in North America. You might be allowed to use it if you're a British Sergeant or on a British cannon crew. You can buy the Dixie Gunworks Bess Kit by Pedersoli for $995 plus shipping while on sale. Add $150 for the reenactor who will need a bayonet as well.

International Military Arms:
Nepaleze Ghurka Marked Original 3rd Model Bess with New Stock runs $695, and the barrel is probably bearing a British proof mark, AH but the parts were made in India in the 19th century...., could be by the same company making the "India" muskets today :wink: , though the barrels aren't welded like the originals were... It's not a proper musket for North America unless you're doing War of 1812 or The Alamo...Maybe could be used by The Rebel Sons of Erin during the CW.

LD

rj morrison said:

ALL ARE JUNK.

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Where do you got this conclusion from?
Based on your own experience?

rj morrison said:

they are all made in india.

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True - and?

rj morrison said:

how much is your life worth.

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As much as yours, why do you ask?

rj morrison said:

you can buy a used pedrosolie for the same money. check out all the forums and sites.

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Yes you could. Or you go with one of TOWs repros, or from The Rifleshoppe - so what is your point?
All india made guns a trash?

No they are not!
I have and use many of them, barrels proofed by an official German Proofehouse - non of them, maybe a French 1717, or my 1728 or my LLP - habe any issue since I use them - firing both, blanks and life.

Ike

all the ones I have seen in us are junk. bad fit, clumsy, they come in without being drilled for a flash hole or nipple.

rj morrison said:

all the ones I have seen in us are junk. bad fit, clumsy, they come in without being drilled for a flash hole or nipple.

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I would strongly recommend to take the time it takes and read this topic carefully:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/292901/fromsearch/1/tp/1/

Ike