How Many Shots to Group

The powder measuring thread sort of begs the question as to accuracy. I didn't want to hijack that thread so what about the question?

Generally, I've always been a 5 shots to a group - sometimes 10 shots - shooter. Lately. I've been rethinking on that. With larger calibers especially, I've occasionally relied on 3 shot groups; especially with the smoothbore. The .32 to .40 might be best tested with 5 shots; but what about the big guys?

Here is why I'm considering 3 shots. With cartridge guns each shot is exactly like the one before it and the one after it. But with a muzzleloader each shot is a separate event and stands on it's own. Think about it. How many shots does one normally take hunting...say, deer? If you're like me it's almost always just ONE shot. And three shots are so rare I can only recall once firing three times much less five. Three shot groups will always be smaller than 5-10 shots. Each shot starts from scratch and we can only attempt real consistency. We're talking hunting only, not target shooting of any kind.

We've all got lots of 5-shot groups that are worth bragging about. But how about five 3-shot groups rather than three 5-shot groups? Won't that tell us what we need to know? Just my thoughts and I'd like to hear what others think.

While experimenting with load variables,, 3 shot groups have always been good enough for me.
As I really dial it in with fine sight adjustment then of course more shot's are prudent.
But I like your thinking, 5-3 shot groups are better then 3-5 shot groups for provenance.

Target or "X hunting" is another ball game that includes shooting for more then just rifle accuracy.

At a pinch I will use a 3 shot group, I prefer to use a 5 shot group as it may give a better average. 3 shots should be the absolute minimum for a group.

I'm a three shotter in the first stages of load development, then when I think I've found the holy grail of loads, I'll try a couple of 5 shotters. If I like what I see, then I sight in the gun with that load. Finally I thoroughly clean the rifle and make a series of 1 shot groups, thoroughly cleaning the rifle and firing each shot from a bright lubed bore, just like I'll be firing my first on a hunt. Only when those 1 shotters are performing exaclty as I want do I consider the gun perfectly sighted in with its best load.

The more shots in the group the more accurate the result....
For example if the margin of error was 50% a 3 shot group would only be 27% accurate representatively....Whereas a 10 shot group would be 67% accurate in representing the accuracy of your gun.

I think you're absolutely right. A single flyer can expand a "group" a ton. 9 go right through the 10 ring and then --oops, a 7. The former 9-shot x 1" group group is now a 10-shot x 6" group. What the more meaningful number is, is the standard deviation departure from the center of the group. That involves a fair amount of hard math.

So an easier way to get to essentially the same thing is to first center your sights, and then shoot 10 rounds at a standard round bull's eye.
Add up the score. if you shoot an 85 (out of 100 possible) then your standard deviation is the middle of the 8 ring to the middle of the 8 ring. The numbers won't be exactly the same as doing the math calculations, but it's pretty close.

To get it more accurate, you could use a transparent overlay of the bull's eye, and move it around to give yourself the highest possible score.

It's a good layman's "blunt instrument" calculation method anyway.

If you're after "first shot, clean and cold barrel" knowledge then you actually have to duplicate those conditions. Sorry.

I also like to number my shots sequentially....This helps to eliminate clean bore, fouled bore, wind etc...fliers.

If you're after "first shot, clean and cold barrel" knowledge then you actually have to duplicate those conditions. Sorry.

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What I have done in the past is fire my first shot at a target then stop....save that target for tomorrow or another day and shoot it cold again....over a month you get a real nice picture of your hunting ability....Especially if you are able to place it in different locations like a woods walk.

I like one shot groups to start. meddle a bit and when "close" 3 shots. when REAL close 5 shots and fine tune.

I always fire the gun before hunting so I have a dirty (swabbed) barrel I know will go off and hit where the gun is aimed (which can be other than where I aim the gun :redface: )

colorado clyde said:

What I have done in the past is fire my first shot at a target then stop....save that target for tomorrow or another day and shoot it cold again....over a month you get a real nice picture of your hunting ability....Especially if you are able to place it in different locations like a woods walk.

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Amen. :bow: :bow: :thumbsup:
,,and then you know your ability.
That is a huge confidence builder.
Once you have done something like that,, then you know,, now you can concentrate on the "hunt" and not worry about shooting.

I guess I'm repeating myself,, but that's just what I've done too.
What's fun for me as a quasi-target shooter too is knowing "for me" what kind of prep I need for hunting vrs target.
That's always been my harp,, the gun as a tool thing.
There's shooting,, then there's hunting.
Related, but different.

Five. Sometimes ten.

First shot is the most important with either.

When I am getting ready for bow season I will only take one shot from any position and then retrieve it and shoot again. I keep one blunt in my hunting quiver for a daily practice shot . . . or two.

It really depends more on the grouping of my shots. If all 3 of my rounds are almost touching or in the area of say an inch, we'll that's good enough for any adjustments needed. If you get a flier, then maybe an additional shot or 2 will let you know if it was just you not following through.(breathing, trigger squeeze or sight picture or flinching)

two or three is all that is needed when in the beginning of sighting a rifle. But for zero, IMO, a ten shoot group is needed. A good three shoot group can be a fluke. Five shots shows the gun is good, ten shows the shooter and gun are in sinc.

That's why I prefer 5 3-shot groups. If the 5 groups are "in there" you know what you've got. After firing a number of 3-shot groups I can't help but firing 5-shot groups "just to see". 3-shot groups tell me what I need to know for hunting purposes; I don't compete with targets.

I remember reading a rather mathematical article years ago (modern rifles) where it was explained that 7-shot groups were more telling than either 5 or 10 shot groups in determining accuracy despite popular notion to the contrary. I've fired plenty of 10 shot & up prb groups and have no money in the kitty and take no position on it. I just do know that a series of 3-shot groups tells me what I need to know for hunting.

I admit I enjoy putting up one (1) target and shooting up to 30 or more shots. That's just for fun. I can also usually shoot a sub 1" 1-shot group at 50 yards. :rotf:

The more shots in the group the more accurate the result....
For example if the margin of error was 50% a 3 shot group would only be 27% accurate representatively....Whereas a 10 shot group would be 67% accurate in representing the accuracy of your gun.

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Um..., err...., hmmmm....,

I know what you're saying Clyde but perhaps not everybody who reads this will. :wink:

I know you're doing your best to duplicate each and every shot, from the load, to the patch and projectile, to the pressure from the ramrod seating, to the sight picture..., when you are shooting your groups. Yet some of the newer shooters might not yet understand all these variables matter, ..., and that the farther away from you the target, the more pronounced will be the variations caused by inconsistent variables or simply a lack of accuracy.

So folks, you might shoot a very tight four shot string out of five shots, but without high attention to detail, if your fifth shot is with a ball with an air gap and for some reason say 15 grains of powder are hung-up inside your measure so you load less powder..., you're going to skew the results. Now the first four shots told you the accuracy of your barrel when you were shooting (since your eyes may not see as well as the next fellow), but the fifth shot told you that you need to be more diligent.
:hmm:
It may be that you need to shoot five more being super careful how you handle each stage in the loading, or you might need to be more careful when pouring ball, and perhaps weigh them to ensure you don't have the odd air pocket.

All things being as equal as possible, larger shot strings may give you a better picture on your barrel's accuracy, out to the range at which you're testing the group. Go farther out and you may find you need to "start from the top".

LD

When adjusting your sights, usually a 3 shot group is sufficient for that purpose. However, when wanting to measure something such as any variable affecting accuracy, I prefer a minimum of a 5 shot group but usually shoot a 10 shot group. The more shots, the better your measurement of accuracy. However, after 10 shots the percentage increase in accuracy reaches a point of diminishing returns.

I know what you're saying Clyde but perhaps not everybody who reads this will.

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Let's think of it like a bucket of golf balls....Each ball represents a miss or a flyer. Every time you shoot you are removing a ball from the bucket. ( the goal is an empty bucket) Shooting a 3 shot group is like taking one ball a time out of the bucket....but a 5 shot group is like grabbing a handful at a time and a 10 shot group is like using both hands.

3 shot groups might look good on paper, but they leave you with a bucket full of potential misses and fliers.
A 3 shot group is also the easiest group to accumulate because it is the bare minimum required....It also gives you the least amount of information and is the least accurate information.

Or simply: As sample size increases, the margin of error decreases.
So, 3 is better than 1 and 5 is better than 3 and 10 is better than 5

Hunting....

The gun is not touched, no sight adjustment, no load tuning. The gun has performed well atleast 3 times at the range........ Then, it's only the 1st shot I evaluate.

Anything not ready by labor day weekend does not get used for hunting season.

I use my cell phone to take pics, I mark the 1st shot with a pen, and then write notes. What gun, what load, windy, sunny, If I am having an off day ,etc....

We are using iron sights. We have pretty good horizontal groups, however due to the nature of the sights we use, we can wander more vertically.

A scoped arm, 3 shots. However, even modern arms perform differently clean vs dirty...

A iron sighted arm, 10 shots. Peep sights, you can get away with 5. First shot...... Doesn't matter on a woodwalk range.........

I'm either hunting, woodswalking, or prepping for next of either...... Heck, that might be on my gravestone someday.....

BrownBear said:

I'm a three shotter in the first stages of load development, then when I think I've found the holy grail of loads, I'll try a couple of 5 shotters. If I like what I see, then I sight in the gun with that load. Finally I thoroughly clean the rifle and make a series of 1 shot groups, thoroughly cleaning the rifle and firing each shot from a bright lubed bore, just like I'll be firing my first on a hunt. Only when those 1 shotters are performing exaclty as I want do I consider the gun perfectly sighted in with its best load.

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what he said!

Worth reporting something a bud discovered. He's an accuracy wonk of the first water, and his ML results were making him nuts.

He noticed that most of the dispersion in groups was left/right, even if there wasn't any wind. He pulled the sights off one of his BPCR match guns with a spirit level on the front sight and mounted those onto his offending muzzleloader.

Left/right dispersion went away and groups tightened a whole bunch. Turns out the culprit in his larger groups was getting his muzzleloader back into absolute vertical for each shot.

Food for thought as guys shoot, reload, and sight in for the next shot.