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Help ID my old rifle

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xanatos

32 Cal.
Joined
Sep 13, 2017
Messages
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Hi Folks - I picked this up back in 1982 or 83. Used it for a few years, then put it in storage and forgot about it until recently when my wife & I started doing a lot of rev & civ war historic tours and reenactments. It's a nice old thing and shoots well, but I have no idea if it's an (old) repro or an old real :) It was old when I got it in '82/3, and being young and wanting it to look like a gun I saw in a book called Mystic Warriors of the Plains, I added the brass tacks, so if it was authentic, I probably destroyed the value... but - hoping someone here can give me a positive ID. Thanks!

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At first glance it looks very much like a cut-down copy of a British P53 Enfield rifle or rifled musket.

I say this because of the lack of markings on the lockplate, but the style of trigger guard and wrist of that and the the trigger.

tac
 
It might have been made into a smoothbore from the issue .577cal.

If it is converted, then it has been well-done. The method of retaining the forend to the barrel and the ramrod pipes are too good to be the work of just a gifted amateur. Have you figured out what calibre it is?

The angled chisel marks just might be as near as they can be to the British government's broad arrow marks, indicating military or at least, government, ownership.

tac
 
I have a very similar gun. At first I thought that it was a sporting gun assembled using Enfield type parts. Now I'm not sure if it isn't an extensively reworked rifled musket. Could be either. Ramrod is steel, not wood. In the late 1860s, early 1870s, Birmingham would have been awash in Enfield pattern parts, left over from both British military production and the huge contracts with the USA and CSA.
The gun pictured appears to have a twist barrel. This would rule out British military. I don't think that is a broad arrow mark. More likely an assemblers mark. Does the mark appear on any other parts?
 
Who put the American Indian tacks on it? Looks like a late Trade Gun. I'd like to see the side plate.

It's got a checkered stock and a tampion (sp) for the barrel, and it looks like an old gun to me.
 
It will be from the civilian gun trade, either from Belgium or more likely Birmingham England. It has been made professionally, and if the barrel is damascus , not wrought iron or steel it won't be converted from a military barrel. If those marks are false then if may have been a military smoothbore barrel from the get go. I think that is the cases here. The chisel marks may be from when the gun was being set up and may be some similar marks on the inside of the lock. Are there any proof marks on the top rear side of the barrel opposite the nipple ? It is a very nice well made piece, pity about the tacks but the gun won't be hugely valuable. Please check the bore as sometimes they can sweat with a tompion in the muzzle. The head of the barrel wedge should be on the opposite side, same side as the lock side nails

Cheers
Heelerau
 
Thanks for this info, this is fantastic. I was really expecting to hear I probably had some cheap Sears DIY kit from the 50s - fantastic to hear it has some real age to it. The gun feels very nice in the hands and it's great to shoot it. I just bought a proper cleaning kit for it... Looking forward to using it again. If anybody recognizes anything more, I'd love to learn more about it. Thanks!
 
I would say it's definitely an Enfield type lock but not familiar with "E-F" marks. May have been military but the barrel shows no sign of a rear sight, so probably not. If you can pull the tacks, please do so and replace with the domed type, much more correct for the era. TOTW even has 'antiqued' ones in several sizes which would look much more authentic.
:thumbsup:
 
Dave 68 grains of FFg and ounce and 1/4 of heavy shot. You could also shoot a tight patched ball, they shoot quite well, I have shot rabbits with a smooth bore out to 4 odd yards with a patched ball.
go make smoke !!
 
I agree with DickS that the barrel is laminated twist. It shows in both the muzzle photo and the water table photo.

The ram rod is a nicely tapered, and the visible end piece looks very much like those on mid 19th-century originals that I have.
 
Dave Xanatos said:
Thanks for this info, this is fantastic.

I was really expecting to hear I probably had some cheap Sears DIY kit from the 50s - fantastic to hear it has some real age to it.


The deep pitting/patina on the lockplate and breechplug alone speaks to it's age - it takes a loooong time for the rust to get that softened/rounded look to the pitting.

As posted above, remove the lock & inspect the inside surface of the lockplate for any possible clues left there.
 
Jackpot. A good cleaning reveals much:


How do these marks influence the ID?

Thanks!
 
Well I'm seeing Birmingham proofs for The late 1860's to mid 1870's. The script BP under a crown is the black powder proof, the crossed scepters are the Birmingham proof house marks. The large B475 is the assembly code for the piece. The second photo is too out of focus to tell for sure. The Enfield factory was near London but guns were made by the Birmingham gun smiths. Headed in the right direction looks like! :wink:
 
The "25" is the gauge stamp. Basically .58 smoothbore.
The proofs are standard Birmingham proof marks.
 
I have been requested to repost images at 900 pixels or less, so here are the latest with the Birmingham and Black Powder marks, etc:

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The "fuzzy" part reads the same as the bottom of the barrel: "EH"

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