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Question on 18th century "Diamond" Shape Grip Trade Knives

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Since we have been talking about 18th century Trade knives in a couple threads, I was wondering if anyone has used the kind where the sides form a pyramid and thus from the rear of the grip, it is a diamond shape?

Never having used a grip in that shape, it looks like it may be less comfortable to use than a grip with flatter sides? Maybe there is something I don't realize about them because I have never used one?

I would appreciate any info from someone who has actually used a Trade Knife with that "Diamond" Grip shape. Thank you.

Gus
 
I made 2 hand-forged knives with Walnut diamond-shaped handles for friends who do Fur Trade. The diamond-shaped handles were surprising comfortable and I don't remember any difficulty in registering the cutting edge. The width increased slightly towards the aft end so one could get a firm grip.
 
That is very interesting. Thank you.

Did I catch that you inferred the diamond grip shape is later in the 18th century and early 19th century? The reason I ask is because I want it for the FIW/AWI time periods.

Gus
 
I can't really give you a date as I don't know when the diamond-shaped handle originated.
 
I have one. It is an English trade knife from Old Dominion Forge.

It's pretty nice, actually. It's not awkward or anything. It sort of fits into the bend of your fingers so it's easy to keep a grip on it.

Additionally, you've got sort of a flat corner in the back. This has come in handy, especially if I need it to start a ball down my rifle. Ive used the flat end of the handle to get a needle started into buckskin in a pinch once, too.

Here's a photo of it with the sheath I made before I turned it into a center seam.

 
Did anyone else notice that the knives shown by the OP's link have no pins showing? Stick tangs I assume. Not typical for a common scalper with that grip style, but I suppose possible. The diamond shape grip on typical scalpers is listed on a few 18th c. shipping manifests I've seen. I would guess from mid century on at least. I don't understand a concern on "registry" of the diamond grip. It doesn't matter what the cross section of a straight symmetrically shaped grip is, they will all be the same by feel as far as where the blade edge is. Unless a grip is curved, or otherwise shaped or featured for orientation, your hand will not know. If you're not sure, then you have to feel for the blades heel, or spine, neither of which will cut you in this case. I did one time cut my thumb while skinning with a Dadley patterned knife, but they have no heel. Consequently, I stopped using that type of knife for skinning chores.
 
I over looked the obvious as far as blade orientation on typical scalpers. You will feel the over lapped grip slot on the underneath. Mostly on English, but even on some of the French. One of the better recognized experts on the French half tanged scalpers, "boucherons", has in the past few years, come to believe that the French knives were dressed off, or fitted underneath leaving no open slot. I don't know, and am not sure that he really does either. Here of late, he also has come to believe that the French knives had two piece slab grips over the half tang, and a third rivet pin to secure the slabs at the rear, much like some of the English butcher knives. His opinion is based on a few hundred of these French knives that were recovered in a river where one of the large French cargo trade canoes capsized and lost it's freight. I would like to see evidence from at least a few other distant sites, that this was the common French construction, and not just another accepted method, and some solid evidence of the elimination of the grip slot on the underside. Just, I hope, an interesting FYI to ponder.
 
I chose the first link because it was the first I found with the diamond grip shape. I did not notice the knives in the first link had no pins. Not sure they don't, it may be just that the paint is covering the pins and the pins don't show in the photograph? A more recent photo from the same source shows octagon handles and the painted one also doesn't seem to show the pins. Of course in this one it looks like he may have used brass pins, which are not right. However, that could also be a trick on the eye of the photo. http://www.claysmithguns.com/trade_knives.jpg

I have often seen the following photo of French Trade knives, but have to confess I do not know much about the photograph.
http://oi701.photobucket.com/albums/ww20/LeLoup2/wrackhhwittenbergenmess17thc_zps5dd1a31a.jpg

I always looked at that photo primarily for blade shapes, but only recently noticed a couple other things about the blades.

The first thing "new to me" is the sort of spur or projection on the bottom of some of the wood grips. Don't know how I missed that before, but I did.

The other thing is the different diameter pin holes in some of the tangs. Of course with the diamond shaped drill bits used to drill metal in the period, it does not surprise me that the holes are different diameters, even in the same tang. However, and come to think of it, those holes may have been "hot punched" by the blacksmith/cutler and that would also explain the different diameter pin holes.

Gus
 
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I have found somethings that look awkward or uncomfortable are not as soon as you adjust for it. An early 'club butt ' can be pretty comfortable, as can a 'fish tail'. Much of our comfort factor is not about comfort but about being used to it.
 
I can see your point. I always thought the fish tail butt English Matchlocks looked VERY clubby and uncomfortable until I shouldered a couple of very nice replicas at the World Championships in Wedgenock, UK in the mid/late 90's. They were surprisingly comfortable.

Gus
 
Avalon forge carries one they simply call a kitchen knife , diamond handle painted red scalper for twelve bucks , works for me and holds a keen edge
 
I'm pretty sure they are made in India Gus. Basically the same one Crazy Crow offers, but not painted red, and not really correct either.
 
The diamond shape certainly looks uncomfortable! And drilling holes for the pins would be a bit more complicated (if you drill at a slight angle with parallel sided scales no one would notice, but with diamond scales you would miss the opposite corner!)

I wonder what advantage they might have, and I wonder who thought, "Hey, let's try diamond shaped scales!"?
 
Wick Ellerbe said:
I'm pretty sure they are made in India Gus. Basically the same one Crazy Crow offers, but not painted red, and not really correct either.

Even as thrifty as I am, I wouldn't expect it to be for that price. A good workman is worth his hire.

Gus
 
You just shape in the center ridge after drilling the holes. Correct for that would be the half tanged with a one piece grip. Kyle Willyard does a lot of these, but I've only done a few. a FYI for those interested. The English drilled their holes for their scalpers low of center on the tang, to allow the pins to be centered on the oversized grip.
 
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