The FIRST Bowie Knife??

Friends,

This AM about 1000, I visited The Alamo Shrine to see the NEW Bowie's Knife exhibit. - There is at least 25-30 (I didn't count) original Bowie's Knives on display.
Included in the display is the coffin-handled Bowie from the famous Sandbar Fight & the notorious Icehouse Fight.

The MOST interesting thing to me was the FIRST known knife that was designed & actually made by COL Bowie about 1820 & given to a family friend in Arkansas.

It doesn't look much like what most of us think of as a Bowie knife, as it's REALLY "Plain Jane", about 12" long overall with a 4-5" oak handle, plain iron guard & a 7-8" blade that looks like a "miniature bolo knife" & that is about 3/8" thick at the spine.


The curator said that the design of Bowie's knives was "a continuing process", going from VERY plain to ornate as the years went by. = By about 1830 the knives designed & (sometimes) built by COL Bowie & by his brother, Rezin Pleasant Bowie, LOOKED like what most of us think of as a Bowie.
(The vast majority of knives were designed by COL Bowie or Rezin & "contracted out" to a blacksmith/silversmith.)

After COL Bowie's death at The Alamo, Rezin Bowie had a considerable number of custom-made fighting knives made "on private commission" for customers OR as gifts to other men, until his passing in 1841.- Some Bowie fans say that Rezin may have had as many as 400 blades made for sale/as gifts.

Note: SORRY. The curator of the museum told me that photographs of any display at The Shrine are absolutely forbidden by the Director of The Texas General Land Office.

yours, satx

This is an interesting video showing some early bowie knives from the 1830s up until the Civil War:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgDLPTAGw-k

INTERESTING.

yours, satx

When I saw the thread I was hoping for some pics but your story was pretty darn good without them. I need to read up more on Bowie cause I sure didnt know he had a brother. Your lucky to get to see such an exhibit. It would be quite a drive for this ole redneck :idunno:

I like the OP and the link provided in a reply. I'd heard that Bowie-knives actually made by one of the two Bowie brothers were rare even in their day..., and that what most of the folks on the frontier carried, called a "Bowie knife" was probably made in England.

LD

My understanding about the knife used at the sandbar fight was that it was a (French pattern?)butcher knife with no guard. I call it a French pattern because it had a straight spine like a scalper pattern, but larger and thicker. http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/bios/bowie/knife_like_bowies.html
Later renditions as noted developed into the fighting knives we see today.

I would GUESS that well over 99% of "Bowie-style" knives were English made.

According to the exhibit, the ONLY KNOWN knife that was actually MADE by COL Bowie is the "Plain Jane" 1820 "miniature bolo" that is in the display at The Shrine. = All the rest of the REAL Bowie's knives were made by blacksmiths/silversmiths/cutlers.
(Jim & Rezin only DESIGNED the @500 blades that are LIKELY the REAL Bowie's knives.)

yours, satx

SPOT ON.

The Sandbar Fight/Icehouse Duel knife is on display at The Shrine. = To me it LOOKS like a "FANCY-made" butcher knife.

Incidentally, COL Bowie's personal knife is in the collection of HAM & the last time that I was there it was on public display.
(COL Bowie took Rezin's personal blade to TX & used his brother's blade in his last fight.)

Note: The blade that COL Bowie used most was "My Little Friend", a small & (according to people who saw it) really plain-looking hunting knife that that was given to Jim by his favorite cousin (Nellie Bowie) for Christmas in 1832 or 1833. - Members of the Bowie family say that COL Bowie was "never known to be without it".

yours, satx

Note: The following sentence was "lost" in the process of "proofing" the first comment to this page.: Re-enactors would likely do well to NOT describe their fighting knife as a "Bowie's knife" unless they are portraying a character who was from AR, LA, MS or TX after 1830 OR portraying a "very well to do gentleman" after 1836 & before 1842.
(Rezin Pleasant Bowie died in 1841.)
Other similar fighting knives are "Bowie style" & LIKELY of English make.

just my OPINION, satx

satx78247 said:

I would GUESS that well over 99% of "Bowie-style" knives were English made.

According to the exhibit, the ONLY KNOWN knife that was actually MADE by COL Bowie is the "Plain Jane" 1820 "miniature bolo" that is in the display at The Shrine. = All the rest of the REAL Bowie's knives were made by blacksmiths/silversmiths/cutlers.
(Jim & Rezin only DESIGNED the @500 blades that are LIKELY the REAL Bowie's knives.)

yours, satx

Click to expand...

The story of the Bowie knife will never be settled. There are just too many "original" Bowies for many, or possibly any, of them to be genuine. The stories abound and are unverifiable. The most popular belief is that James Black (same initials: JB) made the first Bowie. But some people who are very studied on the subject claim James Black never existed. Search for Historic Arkansas Museum (HAM) and check out their knife gallery. You will find examples of the coffin handle, which many believe is the original style of the much debated Bowie. And the debate goes on, and on and..........

The early coffin handle style without a cross guard has always surprised me a bit. Not sure if the handle style was better for gripping OR was it just for psychological intimidation due to the shape?

No cross guard for a fighting knife really surprises me by the 1820's because successful fighters were using more slashing attacks and some stabbing attacks. The cross guard keeps a sweating hand from slipping forward on the blade and if the fighter knows how to use it to deflect attacks so his gripping hand does not get slashed, it is more protection against such attacks.

Gus

SPOT ON, imo.

IF I was going to have a fighting knife made (I doubt that I ever will at my age), it would have across guard.

yours, satx

Rifleman1776 said:

satx78247 said:

I would GUESS that well over 99% of "Bowie-style" knives were English made.

According to the exhibit, the ONLY KNOWN knife that was actually MADE by COL Bowie is the "Plain Jane" 1820 "miniature bolo" that is in the display at The Shrine. = All the rest of the REAL Bowie's knives were made by blacksmiths/silversmiths/cutlers.
(Jim & Rezin only DESIGNED the @500 blades that are LIKELY the REAL Bowie's knives.)




yours, satx

Click to expand...

The story of the Bowie knife will never be settled. There are just too many "original" Bowies for many, or possibly any, of them to be genuine. The stories abound and are unverifiable. The most popular belief is that James Black (same initials: JB) made the first Bowie. But some people who are very studied on the subject claim James Black never existed. Search for Historic Arkansas Museum (HAM) and check out their knife gallery. You will find examples of the coffin handle, which many believe is the original style of the much debated Bowie. And the debate goes on, and on and..........

Click to expand...

The fact is they were making small pocket pistols before Derringers came along. And making meat pies before anyone in America heard of calozone. The basic 'Bowie ' designs predates ol' Jim by a few years,or centuries. We know the Swiss were using them before the sixteenth century. The sax was pretty similar to Bowies

tenngun said:

Rifleman1776 said:

satx78247 said:

I would GUESS that well over 99% of "Bowie-style" knives were English made.

According to the exhibit, the ONLY KNOWN knife that was actually MADE by COL Bowie is the "Plain Jane" 1820 "miniature bolo" that is in the display at The Shrine. = All the rest of the REAL Bowie's knives were made by blacksmiths/silversmiths/cutlers.
(Jim & Rezin only DESIGNED the @500 blades that are LIKELY the REAL Bowie's knives.)




yours, satx

Click to expand...

The story of the Bowie knife will never be settled. There are just too many "original" Bowies for many, or possibly any, of them to be genuine. The stories abound and are unverifiable. The most popular belief is that James Black (same initials: JB) made the first Bowie. But some people who are very studied on the subject claim James Black never existed. Search for Historic Arkansas Museum (HAM) and check out their knife gallery. You will find examples of the coffin handle, which many believe is the original style of the much debated Bowie. And the debate goes on, and on and..........

Click to expand...

The fact is they were making small pocket pistols before Derringers came along. And making meat pies before anyone in America heard of calozone. The basic 'Bowie ' designs predates ol' Jim by a few years,or centuries. We know the Swiss were using them before the sixteenth century. The sax was pretty similar to Bowies

Click to expand...

Bowie knife is a generic name. I totally agree with tenngun, they were already making similar knives, his name just got stuck to the American fighting knife like Levis name got stuck on American Dungarees, and everybody seems to believe Levi invented the style of pants. All he did was buy up a patent for putting rivets in the existing style of pants that were already popular and he was only one of many tailors making them without rivets before that.

These seemed to be a pretty popular fighting knife amongst The Spaniards. Sure feels good the hand. (Fork is for scale, and eatin')

It amuses me that so many questions about "The Bowie Knife" exist. We may never know what the original knife truly looks like, too many years and too many lies for that to ever be known for a certainty. We do know what the knife Bowie carried to Texas looks like and have since at least 1899 when Noah Smithwick published his book so laboriously titled "Evolution of a State or Recollections of Old Time Texas". Being a well known blacksmith at San Felipe, Bowie approached him to make a usable, fighting version of his famous knife since the original had been polished and fitted with ivory and silver handle and scabbard and Bowie didn't "wish to degrade it by ordinary use", or so said Smithwick. Bowie asked him to make a duplicate which Smithwick then described as "The blade was about ten inches long and two broad at the widest part." Smithwick also goes on to mention how he cut a pattern and made copies ranging from $5.00 to $20.00 "according to finish".

In itself, not a lot, but my old pal Charley Eckhardt got to see, hold and meticulously measure the original Smithwick marked Bowie that belonged in the collection of John R. Norris in 1953. Though not germane to this story, Norris owned a mint Walker and one of the original "Branding_Iron" pair of original Colt SAAs.
Charley's detailed description in his chapter "Jim Bowie's Elusive Knife" from his second book "Texas Tales Your Teacher Never Told You" goes like this....

"The Smithwick Bowie in Mr. Norris' possession had a blade ten and one-half inches long, two inches wide, and a quarter-inch thick. The clip or 'gut-tickler' was three inches long and perfectly straight, not dished. The point was at the center-line of the blade. It had neither fuller nor ricasso. Knife folks know that the fuller is the so-called 'blood groove' in the blade, which has all sorts of fanciful explanations for existing. In fact it helps stiffen the blade, in exactly the same manner that a T-shaped bar of iron is stiffer than a flat bar. The ricasso is that little piece between the hilt and the blade that isn't sharpened and usually has the knife maker's trademark on it.
"It had a perfectly straight iron cross guard, a full tang, and a grip made of two pieces of light-colored wood--possibly bois d'arc (Osage Orange or 'Hossapple')--which was fastened with two large rivets. The blade was marked near the guard with a large spread eagle and in capital N. SMITHWICK letters in a semi-circle over the eagle."

The description is exact for the other few known examples of Smithwick's marks on his work. In short, what Bowie was carrying was a medium large fighting knife of solid design. Just wish a knife maker could stand to make a real copy! :wink:

No cross guard for a fighting knife really surprises me by the 1820's

Click to expand...

Gus the answer may be in the carrying mode, not the fighting mode. If the knife sheath is concealed in the armpit of the waistcoat, or the sleeve of the coat, or an interior pocket, a cross guard might snag when the knife is drawn. Even if the blade extends wider than the handle at the ricasso or choil, that might snag on the clothing.

Now it might be very rare that such a snag would happen, BUT if the users of the knives at the time in question thought it a serious and dangerous possibility, that might be enough for them to choose knives without guards nor blades wider than the handles.

I've noticed that we tend to think of Mr. Bowie as a rough frontiersman, dressed in "frontier clothing" (whatever that is :wink: ) and most folks who know about Jim Bowie and his having a knife (and not much else) would doubtless be amazed to learn that the "sandbar fight" was from a dispute in town, among townsmen, using pistols and sword canes. It wasn't between bearded, fringed leather and moccasin wearing fur trappers..., but that's what a lot of folks depict in their minds. So Bowie and the rest probably carried knives concealed, when in the town. Why did at least one (and iirc it was two) of Bowie's adversaries carry sword canes if it was acceptable to openly wear ones sword or knife in town? :wink:

LD

As a sidenote to fighting with such knives, if you are interested, I suggest looking up a gentleman by the name of Bill Bagwell in east Texas. His credentials are known world wide.

When it comes to Bowies/fighting knives he's pretty versed on their deployment. Especially Bowies. He's made a few too.

Just if you are interested.

So, what should we call the knife that Bowie used at the sand bar fight? It wasn't/isn't what most people portray as a 'Bowie Knife".

I can't help but think that cane knives were also influential in development.

Btw, there's all kinds of cane other that sugar to cut in the south.