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Login Name Post: The FIRST Bowie Knife??        (Topic#303997)
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-27-18 05:11 PM - Post#1666229    

    In response to satx78247

I'm sure there's a huge amount of anxiety about creating a safe display for that one-of-one knife. Locks only keep honest people honest.
How can anyone display the gold at Fort Knox and not invite some fruitcake from making an attempt!?
I mean it is a memorial/shrine but it still takes money for reasonable protection and a 24/7 armed guard.

  • satx78247 Said:
That knife now belongs to the family of a Mexican LT, who took it back to Mexico as "war booty"


Is there a link info about/or to photo's or any way to "see" that knife? Has that family made public anything worth sharing?
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-27-18 05:53 PM - Post#1666235    

    In response to necchi

The Mexican family seems to have NO interest in exhibiting or even discussing the Rezin Bowie knife & is "publicity shy".

Mr. Oliver simply told a reporter from THE FORT WORTH STAR-TELEGRAM in DEC 1985 that he had wasted his time traveling to Mexico & trying to buy Rezin Bowie's knife, as it is their "family treasure".
All that he accomplished was being allowed, by a elderly lady of the family, to see/hold the knife.
(I was told, by one of his close friends, that Mr. Oliver offered 100,000.oo USD in cash for the knife & was told that no offer would be accepted and/or even welcomed. = The famous knife, that COL Bowie used at The Alamo's fall, is evidently/simply not for sale.)

Note: The ONLY differences in COL Bowie's own knife & the Rezin Bowie knife is that each bother's knife has their personal cattle brand carved into the handle. = "JB" or "RB" (With the "R" reversed & connected to the "B").

yours, satx


 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-27-18 06:36 PM - Post#1666243    

    In response to satx78247

So COL Bowie`s knife at the shrine is close to or similar to the Resin Bowie knife?
(forgive my ignorance)
Ya know(?) The return of the Resin Bowie knife as a National Treasure should be included in all the dealing the politico's have going on!!
No Knife,, No NAFTA!!
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-27-18 08:54 PM - Post#1666263    

    In response to necchi

Rather than me re-typing all of this information, may I suggest that you go reread the FIRST post in this thread (#1628701) & continue with reading posts 1628817, 1628819, 1629216, 1662224 & 1552733 as it will (I think) clear up your confusion.

My most sincere apologies to you/anyone else who I have "confused". = It was my intent to "illuminate this subject".
It is quite possible that I simply failed in that regard.

yours,satx


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13721
Rifleman1776
01-28-18 11:07 AM - Post#1666309    

    In response to satx78247

  • Quote:
The Mexican family seems to have NO interest in exhibiting or even discussing the Rezin Bowie knife & is "publicity shy".



As time goes on, without the knife being exhibited and made available for study, it's provenance could vanish. That would make it, essentially, worthless. In fact, now, how does one prove it what is claimed?

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-28-18 11:35 AM - Post#1666311    

    In response to Rifleman1776

AGREED 100% ===> That's WHY Charles Oliver wanted to buy Rezin Bowie's fighting knife & donate it to The Alamo Shrine's collection.

My guess (and that's all that it is: a GUESS) is that the family doesn'r care about provenance, as they have had the knife in the family home since the Mexican LT brought it home AND they have no interest at all in displaying, selling, donating and/or doing anything else with the knife, except KEEPING it in the family.
(I heard "second hand" that the family didn't know WHO Rezin Bowie was & didn't much care who he was.)

Note: IF I was a member of the family (& was of the same opinion as the family members are), what I would worry about is the LOSS of the knife by fire, theft, storm, etc.

yours, satx


 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 25944
Zonie
01-28-18 03:55 PM - Post#1666354    

    In response to satx78247

It is too bad the knife wasn't brought back but I think I understand the family's feeling.

"That knife belonged to your great, great, great, great, great,great uncle, Don Jose Fernando Santiago de Norte !!!
The family will treasure it always."

Who owned it before it was found has no meaning to them.
Just Jim...



 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-28-18 04:32 PM - Post#1666358    

    In response to Zonie

  • Zonie Said:
Who owned it before it was found has no meaning to them.


Now that makes sense,, at least lends understanding to how the family could feel.
But doesn't that whole thing lend at least suspicion as to actual provenance?
I mean this entire thread demonstrates that the Bowie knife style and shape changed/developed in as little as 40yrs.
No disrespect intended, but for those of us that haven't studied Bowie Knife history in detail it is a hodge-podge of actual proven artifacts and random claims. I'm sure that those that have studied are at this time sure of the facts they have
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-28-18 08:19 PM - Post#1666389    

    In response to Zonie

Even though I'm a "known Alamo Shrine fanatic", I agree with you 100%.
(I like to think that if it was our family, who had custody of Rezin Bowie's knife, that we would happily give it to The Shrine but I'm far from sure as to how the members of my family would feel.)

yours, satx


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-28-18 08:23 PM - Post#1666391    

    In response to necchi

Fwiw, the late/lamented Charles Oliver, who was an expert on TX history, was allowed to see, inspect & actually hold the Bowie's knife. - I'm told that he said that he had no doubt whatever of the Rezin Bowie's knife's provenance.

Personally, I hope that one day that the Bowie's Knife will come back to Texas, though Arkansas likely has at least as good of a claim to it as we Texicans do.

yours, satx


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13721
Rifleman1776
01-29-18 02:59 PM - Post#1666504    

    In response to satx78247

  • Quote:
IF I was a member of the family (& was of the same opinion as the family members are), what I would worry about is the LOSS of the knife by fire, theft, storm, etc.




Exactly. And that is a big reason why I donated my Jimmy Lile made NMLRA Bicentennial Commemorative Bowie to the Historic Arkansas Museum. It had been a safe queent for many years now others can see and enjoy.

 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-29-18 04:03 PM - Post#1666517    

    In response to Rifleman1776

GOOD on you, imVho.

This situation is PERSONAL to me, as my collection of antique pocket watches, our wedding photos, my grandfather's treasured ruby ring & several "hard to find"/expensive firearms were "washed away" by a hurricane.
(Insurance cannot replace family heirlooms.)

yours, satx


 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-29-18 06:31 PM - Post#1666548    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Rifleman1776 Said:
my Jimmy Lile made NMLRA Bicentennial Commemorative Bowie


Is that one supposed to be a "special" kind of Bowie?
Honest question,, What is or does that knife represent besides a limited edition by a renowned artist as a fund raiser for a specific group ?
Is it a specific copy that represents one of the "known"-"original"-"Bowie" knives?
Somehow Jimmy Lile knives are special because,,??
Are "rambo" knives,, "Bowie" knives that deserve special attention?

I can buy one today on ebay for $2,500, I get that,, why is it "special"?
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13721
Rifleman1776
01-30-18 02:59 PM - Post#1666679    

    In response to necchi

  • necchi Said:
  • Rifleman1776 Said:
my Jimmy Lile made NMLRA Bicentennial Commemorative Bowie


Is that one supposed to be a "special" kind of Bowie?
Honest question,, What is or does that knife represent besides a limited edition by a renowned artist as a fund raiser for a specific group ?
Is it a specific copy that represents one of the "known"-"original"-"Bowie" knives?
Somehow Jimmy Lile knives are special because,,??
Are "rambo" knives,, "Bowie" knives that deserve special attention?

I can buy one today on ebay for $2,500, I get that,, why is it "special"?




Agree. It is one of many versions of a 'Bowie' knife. Yes, it is special for two reasons. Jimmy Lile was a renown knife maker, especially in Arkansas. At the time of donation it was the only one in the museum which was not a used hunter, or whatever. It is presentation grade in 'as new' condition. And, it is the NMLRA Bicentennial commemorative one of one knife with appropriate engraving. I'll agree it might be more of an Arkansas treasure than national.
Have you looked at it?
http://www.historicarkansas.org/collections/knife-bowie-type...

 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-30-18 05:56 PM - Post#1666715    

    In response to Rifleman1776

That's great, really. Sharing that mint issue item with the museum is/was a great thing to do. It will now be cared for,, for a long time.
It's a Bowie type knife, made buy a local artist.

My point is, these are the things that confound discussions about original Bowie knives.
As stax has explained in this topic that the true original Bowie knives,(those that are documented), went through some pretty unique changes in a short period as both the Bowie brothers capitalized on the lore of the day as they traveled.
Documented original Bowie knives are those that are not even made by the brothers, but commissioned to other knife makers as Bowie design to be sold or gifted as a "Bowie knife".

The problem is there are now "Historic","Bowie","Knives" are available everywhere. And honestly today a Bowie Knife means long with a drop point.
It seems people think it's a Manley thing to have a great big chunk of old lawnmower blade that got hack-sawed on one end for the hand to grip,, ground down with a die grinder,, tossed in a fire till red and beat-on with a carpenters hammer,(leave the burnt part on,, that's cool),,

I was hoping the topic would stay on about actual Bowie brother knives.

(i think most of us got bowie knife when we were 10, or at least wanted one!, it was a big cool knife that was better then the barlow folder we got at 8)
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-30-18 05:58 PM - Post#1666716    

    In response to satx78247

so now? Back to The FIRST Bowie Knife??
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-30-18 07:48 PM - Post#1666745    

    In response to necchi

WHAT exactly would you like to discuss about The FIRST Bowie's Knife?
(Note how I described it.)

yours, satx


 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-30-18 08:06 PM - Post#1666752    

    In response to satx78247

How was provenance made besides one man saying, "yup, that's what I think."
I'm not saying you are the source, this has been studied for a long time.
Is there a trail of documentation?
Please, It's a serious question.
I want to be able to tell someone else "I know because of this fact".
You have your sources. I'm hoping for something beyond some guy say's he's an expert, therefore his expert opinion is,,,?
Again, I'm not trying to say you have this provenance,, I'm asking about the actual source.
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-30-18 08:42 PM - Post#1666769    

    In response to necchi

Well, IF you don't accept the expert opinion of the curator of HAM, of The Alamo Shrine & a late/much lamented expert on TX historical blades, I seriously doubt if you will accept any other source.
(Charles Oliver, unlike any person who was living in 1986, had SEEN & INSPECTED both Bowie brothers, essentially identical, fighting knives & said that the knife in Mexico was without question Rezin Bowie's.)

Note: As I said earlier, the family had no idea who Rezin was & I find it highly unlikely that they could have had an even "passable" copy made, not knowing how it was marked with his cattle brand, much less fool a known expert on period blades.

Btw, I found out about "the borrowed knife" on my honeymoon in JUL 1974, when we visited Little Washington, AR where the ORIGINAL knife that Rezin gave the Colonel was then displayed. = Truthfully, I thought it was a joke, when the curator told me that they, "- - - - have your COL Bowie's actual knife on display".
(In those days, just about every Texican "knew" that COL Bowie, as sick as he was with Typhoid/TB & with a broken leg, shot, stabbed & slashed several Mexican soldiers with his famous "Iron Mistress" before he was killed by numerous Mexican bullets & bayonets.)
Then the curator told my bride & I that COL Bowie had taken Rezin's knife to TX & used it in The Alamo Fight.

As to the FIRST Bowie's Knife (the UGLY, CRUDE-looking blade that now belongs to The Alamo's collection), it remained in the family of COL Bowie's friend until it was purchased, determined to be THE ORIGINAL (and only knife that Jim Bowie mad himself) & then donated to The Shrine.

yours, satx


Edited by satx78247 on 01-30-18 08:47 PM. Reason for edit: clarity

 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 11894
necchi
01-30-18 09:58 PM - Post#1666783    

    In response to satx78247

  • satx78247 Said:
Well, IF you don't accept the expert opinion of the curator of HAM,


Honestly Sir, I did a google search of the acronym HAM,
https://www.google.com/search?q=HAM&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-...
Ok? you can guess what that shows, you don't even have to be offended by looking right?, what is H.A.M.?
Why should I know HAM? Why or how should or can anyone un-involved in or with your personal research know what those acronyms are when your tying to explain?
How can I or anyone understand?
Back it up a notch will ya? It's a quasi-public forum, people will look at this years from now and know I don't understand HAM, and I don't even know what your saying? No Clue., you expect me to believe HAM?
(again I even looked for it)
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
satx78247 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5900
01-30-18 10:30 PM - Post#1666787    

    In response to necchi

OK. - My bad.

At least in the Southland, most every "history-interested person" knows that HAM is the usual abbreviation for: HISTORIC ARKANSAS MUSEUM.

In point of fact, "HAM" is a fairly commonplace "shorthand" for the name of the museum on this forum.

yours, satx


 
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