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Belgian Pistol - Help?

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bstormer108

32 Cal.
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All,

I have in my possession what I believe to be a Belgian Traveller's Pistol. It is absolutely gorgeous and in superb shape to boot (aside from the percussion cap nipple being broken)! I am very pleased to have it, but it's proven to be quite the little puzzle. I've been attempting to ID the markings on the pistol and in some cases I've been successful while at the same I'm beginning to doubt my findings. The photo album can be viewed here:
http://imgur.com/a/Rnop6

Here is a list of the markings with my interpretation of them:

  • ELG with a star in an oval - Belgian Liege proof (1810 - present)
  • 11.6 - Indicates 11.6mm (45 cal)
  • What appears to be a turtle but I believe is actually an E and an L on top of one another. I have no idea what this is.
  • L with a star - Indicates that the barrel has not been weakened after proof (1852 - 1853)
  • X with a star - Controller of Proof (Reignier Alfred; 1937-1964)
  • 4 2 51 (2 locations) - Serial number??
  • What appears to be a "g" - Date code? 1928?
  • MB - No idea..

So there you have it.. None of the dates that I have deciphered thus far line up even a little bit. I love the gun, but I have no idea what it is or how old it is and I'd love it if someone with knowledge of such things could chime in with a helping hand!!
 
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ELG with a star in an oval - Belgian Liege proof (1810 - present)

Actually 1846 for handguns.

11.6 - Indicates 11.6mm (45 cal)

Yup.

What appears to be a turtle but I believe is actually an E and an L on top of one another. I have no idea what this is.

Provisional barrel proof.

L with a star - Indicates that the barrel has not been weakened after proof (1852 - 1853)

Correct.

X with a star - Controller of Proof (Reignier Alfred; 1937-1964)

Not necessarily - a star plus any initial letter is simply an examiners mark.

4 2 51 (2 locations) - Serial number??

Assembly number that could, where required, be taken as a serial number.

What appears to be a "g" - Date code? 1928?

No date codes on Belgian-made guns.

MB - No idea..

Probably the assembler's initials.

I reckon that your pistol was made sometime between 1852 and 1853, as shown by the star over L.

ELG, BTW, stands for Épreuve Liége - Liége Proof House.

I haven't seen the Perron - a stamp that looks like an ornamental column. The real thing is a Liége landmark.

Hope this helps.

tac
 
Fantastic! Thank you so much.
This is exactly what I was looking for. Do you have any idea on a potential value? I'm estimating something in the neighborhood of $800-$1000 but that's a complete guess based on a handful of completed auctions. That being said, I have no intention of selling it as it has been passed down to me.
 
Any figure I could offer you would be meaningless, since I live mostly in UK, but over here a similar style of Belgian-made pistol in much better condition would fetch around £600-700 - less in an auction - as there are no accoutrements, and it is a loner. They usually come in cased pairs with all accessories.

tac
 
I have an old Belgian pocket pistol with a similar Damascus barrel.

Although many of the barrels made in the late 1800's used methods to produce a barrel finish that just looked to be Damascus, I know mine is real.

I did several etching tests on the underside of my barrel to determine if it was real or fake and it turned out to be real.

From the appearance of your gun, it looks to be real Damascus too.

My pistol doesn't have all of the neat markings that your pistol has on the barrel. Just the Belgian proof marks and a 4 digit serial/assembly number marked on the barrel, the breech plug and written with ink inside the barrel channel on the stock. :(


 
That's a beautiful pistol, my friend. It's so neat to hold these things and just imagine where it has been and what it has seen.

I'm also quite certain that the barrel on mine is real Damascus as you can run your finger down the barrel and feel the striations. It's a beautiful barrel.

However, I am quite annoyed that the percussion nipple is broken off. Do you know of any one or anywhere that specializes in creating one-off specialty items for antique firearms?
 
Of course, the nipple in your gun may be quite different than the one in my pistol.

That said, even back in the mid 1800's in England and the U.S. there was a move to standardize the threads for the "cones" or nipples and a size close to a 1/4-28 UNF thread was rather common.

According to Dixie Gunworks catalog,

"Nearly all muzzleloading shotguns and rifles used a nipple size .250 thru .275 in steps of .005 and they have a thread measurement of 28 threads per inch ..."

Checking Dixie Gunworks catalog and site I see they still are offering a .265-28 UNF threaded nipple along with several other oversize threaded nipples. These are rifle nipples and they are a bit taller than a pistol nipple.
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/defa...=2a&&page=2&osCsid=vde6asv9ubr6gbhth4negnh7e2

Dixie's catalog goes on to say a person can use these nipples in steps starting with a slightly oversize thread and forcing it into the existing guns threads if they are damaged. They then use larger and larger threads in .005 incriments working their way upward until the threads are in good shape.
NOTE: I DO NOT RECOMMEND DOING THIS. It doesn't work as easily as Dixie implies it does.

That said, I removed the fairly new nipple from my pistol and measured the threads.

The external threads measure .264" in diameter and the thread pitch is 28 threads per inch.

The condition of the threads in the barrel is quite good and I wouldn't be surprised to find that they had been "chased" by a gunsmith using a oversize tap.

Oversize taps are available on the web.
 
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Ben S said:
However, I am quite annoyed that the percussion nipple is broken off. Do you know of any one or anywhere that specializes in creating one-off specialty items for antique firearms?

If you are talking about the nipple, good chance you can just get one.
Have someone that knows what they are doing (gunsmith shop) remove the old one.
If then you can’t just order the right size, the same gunsmith can make one.



William Alexander
 
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