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Punt gun or battery gun

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Free Plunder

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Anyone who knows the difference between the two can relate.
1. Should a punter be considered a cannon?
2. Should a battery be considered what???
Well my family is from the Eastern Shore of VA and both have been part of my family since the 1600s when my 1st ancestor went from Jamestown to "Salt Works" on the Eastern Shore, and trading with Louis Guitar to get Spanish "bow & stern chasers" and using them to harvest fowl from the early days. Progress from match to flint to caplock ignition. Anybody else have any family history from this era. Likely from DE-la-Ware bay, Upper Chesapeake, or NY sound area. My family was at the end of Delmarva Peninsula on both seaside and bayside area.
So what the decision, is a punter a cannon?
Is a battery a cannon or what?
Just need to know so I can post in the proper forum. And as grand father T said, its free plunder if you want to go for it!
FP
 
A battery is a group of artillery pieces when it refers to the topic of cannons. the term "10 Field Battery" would refer to a sub unit of a larger artillery unit, such as "1 Royal Canadian Artillery". it may also refer to a static, strategic location where those cannons are deployed or are going to be/ were deployed. If your family is calling it a "Battery Gun", then that may refer to where it came from-"That's the battery gun." meaning its a gun from the battery.
I`m, sure that there are many different references and meanings that will come to light, but I am pretty darn sure there is no type of cannon called a "Battery".
A punt gun or punter, is a relatively small cannon that would have found a home on the gunnels of a smaller boat.
 
THE WILLIAMS (about 4" bore) & THE TROTTER (5.25" bore) were not only used a punt-guns but were both used as "naval militia pieces" in at least the Oyster Wars and in TWBTS.
(Btw, punt-guns in MD/VA/NC/SC were traditionally "named" after the family that first owned "the big guns".)

During the 1st days of WWII, a circa 1870-80, 3" bore, punt-gun was used as a "bow-chaser" aboard an ersatz "gun-boat" that was part of the MD State Naval Militia on Chesapeake Bay.

Also in FEB42, THE CITY OF CORPUS CHRISTI, an armed private yacht of The Texas Coastal Patrol, was armed with a WBTS-era muzzle-loading 6-pounder, that had previously been an "ornament" on a south TX courthouse lawn AND a pair of WWI-vintage Maxim guns.
(I was told in 1972 by a local Game Warden that "the load" for that cannon was "a #10 can full of lead balls & a bunch of black powder".)

Note: RI & NY (and perhaps SC, too) are known to have armed private yachts & fishing vessels during WWII.
(As of today, though I haven't given up looking, I cannot tell anyone exactly HOW those private vessels were armed, though MD, NY & RI "loaned" some automatic weapons from their State prison systems to the "gun-boats".)

yours, satx
 
I believe 'battery gun' could also refer to a collection of barrels, grouped together to fire simultaneously or sequentially. The Billinghurst Requa gun was referred to as a battery gun.
 
TRUE.

The Smithsonian's American History Museum, the last time that I visited there, had a 5-barrel (of 1-inch bore) "battery-gun" on display in the Chesapeake Bay Commercial Hunting exhibit.

During The Oyster Wars, a commercial oysterman named Willis Fitzgerald Williams from Prince George County had his Oyster Dredger armed with a PAIR of 8-barrel battery guns, each with 1.5" bores. - During a shoot-out with one of the "oyster raiders", William "cleared the decks of" & finally SUNK the other boat with several volleys volleys from his 2 big guns.
(A fictionalized account of that "battle on The Bay" is recounted in THE WATERMEN by James A. Michener..)

yours, satx
 
In WW 1, somewhat outside this forum's purpose, the had British had racks for battery guns, well behind friendly lines. They could hold up to ten rifles and were supposedly aligned to put long-distance plunging fire on areas where Germans were thought to be organizing at night. Usually, however, only one or two rifles were so employed.

Wonder if some ML battery guns were similarly designed or sighted for plunging fire. Setting up a battery guns for indirect fire was pretty complicated.

In the fictional Sharp's books by Bernard Cornwell, the sergeant had an 8-barreled gun, designed for clearing decks.
 
You use a punt gun out of a low flat bottomed boat when the ducks are at the corner of 4th & Long.
 
YES, there were ML battery guns built & ONE was used (at least once) during TWBTS. = A blacksmith/gunsmith from VA built a 50-shot battery gun & "operated it" at a skirmish in 1862, which worked FINE but was "deadly show to reload".
(Leonardo de Vinci designed the 1st such gun in the 15th Century.)

As to the SGTs gun in The Sharpe's novels, there were about a dozen "volley guns" made by British arsenals in (at least) .32, .40 & .50 caliber. = They were "determined to be unusable" due to the severe recoil.
(Fwiw, there is a single KNOWN "commercial market hunter's gun" at The Smithsonian that has TEN .25 caliber rifled barrels that is designed to "ripple fire" in about ONE second. - It's "effective range" for waterfowl is estimated to be 200M!!!)

yours, satx
 
kr54 gets a smilie :thumbsup: yes in the terms of commercial fowl shooting a "battery gun" was a collection of ML barrels set in a "stock" and fixed so as to fire simultaneous or sequentially. Such a gun mounted on the front of a punt, dugout or skiff was used to shoot flocks of waterfowl on the water and at times from a fixed location and most often at night.

A punter was used about the same way only it was a larger single bore gun.

No way could any of these pieces be fired from the shoulder, only from a fixed position like bow of a skiff/punt or from a blind.

I personally have had hands on battery guns of 3 - 4- and 5 barrels. Punters usually of 2 or 3 inches diameter. Such guns were in use by "outlaw" gunners into the 1960s in the Chesapeake Bay and seaside of the east coast. Every one I saw was fired by musket caps. there were some strange types of lock arrangements. Guns that were "captured" by the early days of game wardens are even today held by the Virginia game department and MD probably has some too. And I'd expect the there are or were some in GA, SC, NC, DE and NJ. The battery guns have a very distinctive sound when fired as they usually have sequential ignition of each barrel.

The earliest so called "conservation" law concerning waterfowl actually came about due to night shooting of fowl with battery and punt guns. Plantation owners had fixed baited sites for these guns to harvest fowl to feed slaves. Free white and Indians would shoot these sites at night and collect fowl to sell. the plantation owners having their bait sites shot and no birds would be forced to buy birds for slave food ---sooo they had the legislature make the night shooting of fowl illegal. Didn't do much good. The outlaw tradition was just carried from Europe to the new world. FP
 
PUNT-guns are still LEGAL for waterfowl hunting in The UK & in several other nations.
(IF you are interested in modern waterfowl hunting with punt-guns, check out: http://forumspidgeonwatch.co.uk)

In the nation to which we are retiring in Latin America, punt-guns are lawful for waterfowl hunting, provided that they are muzzleloaders, use flintlock or percussion ignition, are loaded with BP & do not exceed 60mm bore-size.
Also, NEW-made punt-guns must be "inspected for safety" before actually being used for hunting by a member of The National Police, who is in the pay-grade of SGT or higher.
(Punt-gun waterfowl hunting licenses are about 21.ooUSD per year.)

Watercraft for waterfowl hunting while using a punt-gun may NOT be powered with an "internal-combustion engine". = Such gunning watercraft may be paddled, rowed and/or use sails.

Fwiw, I'm planning to build a punt-gun for goose/duck hunting once we are "down there & settled into our home", using a 8-foot piece of heavy-duty/high-pressure & spiral welded steam-pipe that I acquired from an oil-field drilling company. - the bore of that "barrel" is 57.15mm/2.25 inches.
My punt-gun will have flint-lock ignition & will be mounted upon a 6x1 meter traditional "Chesapeake Bay Gunning Skiff", that is "sail-powered" & also provided with paddles.
(The plans for that gunning skiff were purchased from the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum.)

Note: Because of "a long history of piracy" that Latin American nation also allows "commercial vessels with a water-line length exceeding 15M" to have & use a single muzzle-loading cannon of 100mm/3.93 inches bore or less for "protection from lawless acts".

yours, satx
 
satx78247 said:
PUNT-guns are still LEGAL for waterfowl hunting in The UK & in several other nations.
(IF you are interested in modern waterfowl hunting with punt-guns, check out: http://forumspidgeonwatch.co.uk)

In the nation to which we are retiring in Latin America, punt-guns are lawful for waterfowl hunting, provided that they are muzzleloaders, use flintlock or percussion ignition, are loaded with BP & do not exceed 60mm bore-size.
Also, NEW-made punt-guns must be "inspected for safety" before actually being used for hunting by a member of The National Police, who is in the pay-grade of SGT or higher.
(Punt-gun waterfowl hunting licenses are about 21.ooUSD per year.)

Watercraft for waterfowl hunting while using a punt-gun may NOT be powered with an "internal-combustion engine". = Such gunning watercraft may be paddled, rowed and/or use sails.

Fwiw, I'm planning to build a punt-gun for goose/duck hunting once we are "down there & settled into our home", using a 8-foot piece of heavy-duty/high-pressure & spiral welded steam-pipe that I acquired from an oil-field drilling company. - the bore of that "barrel" is 57.15mm/2.25 inches.
My punt-gun will have flint-lock ignition & will be mounted upon a 6x1 meter traditional "Chesapeake Bay Gunning Skiff", that is "sail-powered" & also provided with paddles.
(The plans for that gunning skiff were purchased from the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum.)

Note: Because of "a long history of piracy" that Latin American nation also allows "commercial vessels with a water-line length exceeding 15M" to have & use a single muzzle-loading cannon of 100mm/3.93 inches bore or less for "protection from lawless acts".

yours, satx

That is just too cool. I'm so glad that all the nations of the earth haven't completely lost their senses when it comes to the "boys will be boys" rule.

Are you permitted to have fused shells of any kind in your cannon? The US allows up to 1/4 oz as an explosive charge of BP, which is basically commercial grade fireworks stuff.
 
Sorry, I just don't know that answer.
(I've been "corresponding by mail" with a CPT of The National Police about "carry concealed handgun permits", my planned punt-gun, importing my gun collection & some "customs issues" related to importing our household goods/vehicles.)

CPT Mendoza (NICE GUY, btw!) told me in an email that BP flintlock/percussion firearms of less than 60mm bore are NOT considered to be "deadly weapons" & are NOT regulated.
(He also told me in an email that IF a private person wishes to hold more than 25KG of black powder at any one time, the resident MUST have a "suitable powder magazine of a type deemed acceptable to The National Police" & that powder magazine MUST be inspected for safety.)
Note: I seriously doubt that I'll ever possess 25KG (That's over 55 pounds!) of BP, if only that I couldn't afford to buy that much at one time.

yours, satx
 
60mm is 2.36". 2 1/4" is a fairly common bore diameter, and a well directed shot from one will sink most canoes in short order.

I thought your earlier post said you could have a gun up to 3.93" bore, which is about a 6-7 pounder. http://www.civilwarartillery.com/shottables.htm
Is there a regulation regarding they must be smooth bored, or could you have a 3" rifled gun, such as a Parrot Rifle. That'll sink a marauding dugout canoe even faster.

FYI, the standard powder load for a 6 pounder is about 1 pound of powder. Is it legal there to make your own black powder? It isn't here, (and we don't discuss it on this forum) but I understand the manufacturing costs are right around $3 a pound if you do it in bulk with purchased supplies.
 
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SORRY for the confusion. (MEA CULPA.) The confusion is:
1. COMMERCIAL VESSELS, for example a Coastal Trader, with a Waterline Length of OVER 15M (that's 49.21 feet, i.e., a BIG boat.) can mount a MUZZLELOADING CANNON of up to 100mm bore to protect the vessel/cargo/crew from lawless people/pirates. Commercial vessels, under the anti-piracy law, MAY be powered with wood, coal, petroleum, oil and/or with sails.
(I see NOTHING in the rules to either allow OR prohibit the tube being rifled, as long as the bore is 100mm or smaller. = I'm told that the few commercial vessels that are now armed with cannons, mostly use heavy shot/BP for "anti-personnel loads", rather than a single heavy shot. - The CPT says that vessels armed with rifles/shotguns/handguns/MG are NOW what is common.)
BUT
2. For WATERFOWL HUNTING the bore diameter restriction is 60mm or less. = My planned punt-gun will be a flintlock gun of 2.25 inch bore, which is a little LESS than 60mm.
(The Gunning Skiff with sail/paddles, that I'm planning to build will be 6M long & about ONE meter beam.)

yours, satx
 
Reference your question: Is a punt-gun a cannon? - I simply, as a "fan of" the BIG GUNS, do NOT know that answer & I too have sometimes wondered where on the ML forum that "our guns" belong, if not in the "cannon section".

yours, satx
 
I would say, uneducatedly, a punt gun is NOT a canon because it is a punt gun. A smoothbore musket is not a rifle. Words and definitions matter.

A cannon in my definition primarily shoots solid iron balls in an attempt to destroy other targets. Mostly at sea, but not always. A punt gun shoots shot in an attempt to destroy ducks on the pond.

I saw a video of modern punt guns in England. Setup and approach was complicated. About a pound of BP IIRC, and a stealthy paddle in a narrow punt. Market purposes.
 
Bag limits for waterfowl for licensed PUNT-GUNS are as follows:
1. Daily Bag Limits are for a 24 hour day. - IF I fire & actually take the daily bag limit of waterfowl by 0500 hours, I may NOT hunt waterfowl again until after 0500 the next day.
2. The daily bag limit per hunter is TEN waterfowl EXCEPT that if a punt-gunner has NINE or LESS waterfowl from the first shot(s), the hunter MAY fire again & keep ALL the waterfowl from the final shot regardless of how many waterfowl are taken by the final firing.
(So if I take 1-9 ducks/geese/rails with one/more shots before dawn, I may fire again, kill 20 waterfowl on that firing at 0600 AND lawfully keep ALL 21-29 ducks/geese BUT I may NOT fire the punt-gun again until 0600 hours. Otoh, IF on the first shot, I take 10 or more waterfowl, I may NOT fire again for 24 hours.)
3. The Wildlife & Game Department is VERY strict AND nobody may waste edible flesh of any game animal that is lawfully taken. Also, NO waterfowl may be taken for their plumage alone & the meat thereafter wasted. = A hunter LAWFULLY may dress waterfowl for food & then dispose of the inedible parts as he wishes, subject to NOT littering the water/shore areas with feathers/offal.
(Thus if a hunter should lawfully take 25 ducks/geese/rails in one day, he/she MUST dress & either eat, preserve or give the meat to others for food. = Wasting game is SEVERELY punished there.)

yours, satx
 
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