1863(?) Whitworth

Hi everyone, through a bit of process that started with blacksmithing forums and suggestions from other sources, I have arrived at your forum, which by the way has really got me intrigued, seeking info on a Whitworth Rifle / Musket that is in my gun cabinet.

To cut a long story short it came into my possession though family and friends deaths and now it is a very proud part of my families gun collection.

I am hoping someone can give me some guidance or direction to find some more out, but if you can't I'd love to hear your views. I live on Norfolk Island, part way between Australia and New Zealand, home of the Mutiny on the Bounty Descendants.

The description told to me was there were two batches of these (5000 each) made (1863) and the first batch went to the Confederate Army as sniper weapons while the second batch went with the English to New Zealand, which is where mine came into the family.
I am told 50 cal, has a hexagon barrel (and ball), rifled all the way to the flintlock and they know of 27 in New Zealand and 33 in the world.

They have photographic proof of these in NZ and also another which they can't find which has Maori carving all over it and is held by a chief in the photo. I can't find much of the history of the rifles in NZ on the internet.

I have been told this gun is 80% good, missing the ram rod and has a bent nipple but apart from that is a fine piece. I was offered $10,000 for it so an intrigued to see what its true value would be. I am super proud of it, but still wonder its worth.

I'm having issues with pics, but there is a crown stamped on it, as well as the words "The Whitworth Company Limited". If there is any more interest please message me with an email address and I'll flick you some pics.

Kind regards and thanks in advance,
Jonno.

Welcome to the forum.

I don't have any information about the Whitworth in NZ but there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding about the term "flintlock".

A flintlock uses a piece of hard rock, usually flint, held in the jaws of the cock (hammer) to fire the gun.
The flint is driven into a upright piece of steel (often called a frizzen in modern times) to create a shower of sparks which light a small amount of black powder in the pan.
The burning powder in the pan lights the gunpowder in the barrel by passing thru a small vent hole.

The flintlock system which had been used for over 200 years was pretty much replaced by the percussion lock system by the early 1830's.

I mention this because to the best of my knowledge the Whitworth was never made with a flint lock.

They used a percussion lock which uses a percussion cap (usually a small copper cup with an explosive charge in it) to fire the gun.

The percussion cap sits on top of a coned nipple (which I believe you said was bent).

We have several people here who know quite a lot about the Whitworth. Hopefully, they will chime in and educate us all about your NZ Whitworths.

I sujest you contact the british flint and percussion forums they have a special file on whitworth rifles and will be able to help or dismay you

Thanks, I think you are right, it is percussion.
Jonno.

Hi,
Be very careful about purported "Confederate Whitworths". There is a lot of fakery out there and very few Whitworths were ever used by the CSA. The bore is not likely to be 0.50 cal rather it would be 0.451. Whitworths imported by the south were categorized as "2nd quality" and often stocked almost to the muzzle unlike the usual rifled musket of the time. David Minshall is a member of this forum and hopefully he may chime in. He is involved with long range muzzleloader shooting in England and is very knowledgeable about Whitworths. Visit the website: www.researchpress.org and you will find a lot of information about Whitworth target rifles.

dave

Just a few pointers while we wait for Mr Minshall.

Every Whitworth rifle sent to the CSA was a two-band rifle with a foreshortened muzzle - or an elongated stock, depending on your POV.

The lock is marked WHITWORTH RIFLE Co. MANCHESTER forward of the hammer and has a crown over 'letter' to the rear of the hammer.

The trigger guard tang is marked “2nd QUALITY” and the barrel “WHITWORTH PATENT”. Whitworth rifles ranged from the mid-B500s to the mid-C500s, and nearly every single component is serial numbered.

This includes the tang screw, both lock screws, both barrel bands, the hammer, breech plug, barrel and barrel channel. The hammer is also marked with a cryptic letter or pair of letters in capitals. The the breech plug is sealed in alignment with the barrel using an elongated “O” stamp.

To say that they are rare goes without saying. The Whitworth expert, Dr Dewitt Bailey, has yet to publish his long-awaited definitive book, but in spite of rumours, it is doubtful is many more than around 100 made the journey - at $1000 EACH even back in those days, it's hardly surprising.

The OP's figure of many thousands going in different directions is not a credible one, I fear. The Whitworth rifle was fearsomely expensive even at home, and sending thousands of them to furriners in America, or to colonists in the early days of the British settling New Zealand, and having to fight real wars with the natives, is also unreal in the extreme. Pattern 53 rifled muskets WERE used extensively by colonial forces fighting the Maori, but I have to admit that I have never heard of any Whitworth rifles going in that direction.

I have me doubts that there never anywhere near 5000 Whitworth rifles EVER made in total, let alone two batches of 5000 each - total 10000 - made for foreign trade and military activity 12000 miles from home.

tac
Whitworth 888


PS - THIS is a page from the James D Julia catalogue -
IMPORTANT AND EXTREMELY RARE WHITWORTH CONFEDERATE SNIPER RIFLE. SN C529. Cal. .450 Whitworth Hexagonal, 32-13/16”³ bbl. Marked “WHITWORTH RIFLE Co MANCHESTER” on the lockplate with Birmingham proof marks and the serial number C529 on the upper left quadrant of the bbl. The trigger guard is marked “2nd QUALITY” behind the trigger. The initials “JSW” are neatly carved into the bottom of the stock in front of the trigger guard. The brass tube Davidson telescope was adjusted for elevation by turning the knurled knob on the right side of the forearm. This loosened the clamp on the left side so the 1-1/2”³ bar graduated in 1/16 inch increments, with numbers from 0 to 4, could be raised and lowered, pivoting on the rear mount secured by the rear lockplate screw. The normal bbl sights could be used for normal short range shooting. There is extensive documentation on the acquisition of this rifle in Georgia along with correspondence regarding the use of these guns during the Civil War. This gun was originally found with the telescopic sight missing, which was later located and put back on the rifle. From the known Confederate ordnance documents only 250 of these rifles were purchased by the Confederate Government and only twenty or thirty were run through the blockade to the Confederacy in 1862. A recent letter from noted Whitworth Authorities Dr. D. W. Bailey & W. S. Curtis who will soon be publishing an authoritative book on the Whitworth rifles include the following comments regarding this specific gun. “The telescope mounted Whitworth ”˜2nd Quality’ no. C529 Rifle described here conforms to the specification of all the other known surviving examples of the Confederate Purchase Special Arms. Specifically, it is in the correct serial number range, the simple form of the iron sights, two bbl bands, lack of a safety bolt, common breech rather than patent breech, very short muzzle projection beyond the forend cap (note that the bbl appears to have lost 3/16”³ at the muzzle, it should be 33”³ exactly), the method of mounting the telescope the form of the chequering and everything else about it confirm this. The total number shipped in this telescopic configuration is not known but only 8 have been traced up to this moment.” One identical to this gun, is pictured in Firearms of the Confederacy, plate XXIII and discussed on pages 27 and 28. An extremely rare and authentic Confederate snipers rifle in “out -of-the-attic” condition. This rifle will be featured in two books currently in progress, as noted in the attached document. CONDITION: Rust brown patina overall with moderate to heavy pitting at the breach. The wood is worn and has minor dents and gouges along with flaws mentioned above. The very rare Davidson scope has traces of the black finish on the brass tube and more of it on the eyepiece. There is a small chip in the rear lens of the telescope causing an occlusion in the viewing field. This does not affect the overall view of the scope or crosshairs and is easily fixed. This is an extraordinarily rare Confederate used sniper rifle that probably represents a once in a lifetime to acquire such an example.

Thanks everyone for your help, it is all starting to give me a real picture and perhaps it's not what I was lead to believe... but it is still very cool and I would like to know as close as possible what it is.
Wish I could find how to post a few pics. Tried but couldn't do it.
Jonno.

I'm sure the information about Whitworth's used during the American Civil War are interesting to our new member but as he's living on an island between New Zealand and Australia I doubt that many CW rifles made it that far.

I would think the factory markings on a New Zealand Whitworth would be the same as the markings on the rifles kept in Great Britain though. :hmm:

It would be really interesting to learn how a rifle with such markings ended up in NZ. The OP notes that it DOES have hexagonal rifling and a Whitworth-marked lockplate, but has so far provided no other details to support his 'claim to fame'.

IF it is a real Whitworth, then it just may have been taken there by its private owner. The British Army had trialled it and found it too finicky for line troops to handle, and too prone to a level of fouling that rendered it useless after only two or three shots. That hexagonal-headed cleaning rod was there for a purpose - scraping out the bore after a shot, something that occupied way too much time for troops under fire.

I await more news from down there.

tac
Whitworth 888

Evening all, I'm sorry I can't provide more info.
The rifle is 49inches long.
Has two bands and I guess the right way to describe it is has a wooden stock all the way.
There are some markings - a kings crown, and also "52" then it looks like 4 diamonds then "52" again. Then "D365" but may be "D565". This is stamped on the barrel, opposite side to the 'percussion lock' (if thats the right term).
I can't find any other markings.
Jonno.

Hmmm, apart from the King's Crown - George IV died back in 1837, so it would be a Queen's Crown [Victoria - 1837 - 1901] - it's starting to look right, especially the serial number.

The shortage of stamps is of concern though. It should be stamped with Birmingham Proof marks on the left side of the barrel near the breech. And have a few inspectors' stamps on it as well.

The large crown on the lockplate usually has VR underneath it. Can you measure the lenght of barrel NOT covered by the stock at the muzzle end, please. Also, please describe the ramrod - if present. It should be made up of a series of hexagonal washers that are free to move slightly on the ramrod end to accommodate fitting into and moving up and down a helical and hexagonal bore. The muzzle should also be markedly countersunk, and clearly show the hexagonal bore.

TIA

tac
Whitworth 888

This will give you a good idea of what you are looking to see on your rifle -
http://www.damonmills.com/PS Pages/PS 14/ww_2q.htm

Note that this rifle has been examined as certified as the genuine article by Wm [Bill] Curtis, a world-renowned expert in this field and an occasional poster here. His ancestor was the Curtis of Curtis and Harvey Gunpowder fame, and he and Dr D W Bailey are the co-authors of the definitive Whitworth book I mentioned earlier.

tac

Wow - now we're getting somewhere. Except the ram rod is missing.
Comparing to the pictures, the crown in the third picture down is identical. To me that looks more like a Kings crown as I see a queens crown as rounded top that joins in the middle. Anyway - exactly same but mine not as 'sharp'.
The hammer action is similar only difference being mine is straight at the top where the thumb brings it back, where the one pictured has a slight curve backwards.
The next photo down mine says 'The Whitworth Company Limited'
There is something on top of the barrel between the breech and the back sight, starts with "Whitworth" but it's not very clear.
The sequence of marks in the next pic are identical except for mine being 565.
There's nothing on my trigger guard
The muzzle is identical except the fine pin off the top of the sight is missing but to my eye looks like it may have been there.
The wood in the stock stops 65mm from the end of the barrel and there are two 'steps' as shown in the pics.
The strap swivels are the same also.
The hexagon shape barrel cannot be mistaken.
A major difference is the finish, mine doesn't have the patterned grip around the trigger area etc and mine is a real dark timber. To me the one pictured maybe a sportsman gun, mine reminds of a basic army no frills finish.
Hope this is helping both of us. As I say happy to email a pic but can't see how to post one here....
Thanks again, getting interesting.
Kind regards.
Jonno

Wow - now we're getting somewhere. Except the ram rod is missing.

Pity.

Comparing to the pictures, the crown in the third picture down is identical. To me that looks more like a Kings crown as I see a queens crown as rounded top that joins in the middle. Anyway - exactly same but mine not as 'sharp'.

Age and general decrepitude might account for that.

The hammer action is similar only difference being mine is straight at the top where the thumb brings it back, where the one pictured has a slight curve backwards.

The slightly different shape of the cock is an acceptable difference.

The next photo down mine says 'The Whitworth Company Limited'

Good.

There is something on top of the barrel between the breech and the back sight, starts with "Whitworth" but it's not very clear.

It probably reads something like Whitworth Patent Rifling...

The sequence of marks in the next pic are identical except for mine being 565.

Serial numbers were invented to be able to differentiate onegun from another, otherwise identical gun... This is normal.

There's nothing on my trigger guard.

Those that went to the CSA were marked second quality - yours obviously did NOT go to the CSA.

The muzzle is identical except the fine pin off the top of the sight is missing but to my eye looks like it may have been there.

A missing foresight in unfortunate but not the end of the world.

The wood in the stock stops 65mm from the end of the barrel and there are two 'steps' as shown in the pics.

That's as it should be.

The strap swivels are the same also.

The sling swivels are good.

The hexagon shape barrel cannot be mistaken.

Hopefully, you are talking about the INSIDE of the barrel and not the outside, right?

A major difference is the finish, mine doesn't have the patterned grip around the trigger area etc and mine is a real dark timber.

The pattern is called checkering, and most all the Volunteer and military match rifles had it - it makes it easier to hold the gun well, as you can imagine, rather than the smooth basic pattern of stock. Most old guns are very dark, almost black, a mix of constant application of linseed oil and handling.

To me the one pictured maybe a sportsman gun, mine reminds of a basic army no frills finish.

The one pictured is a Whitworth sharpshooting rifle, intended for killing men, rather than game.

Hope this is helping both of us. As I say happy to email a pic but can't see how to post one here....

PM me with your email details - if it's any consolation, I've been here many years and I can't post images either.

tac

Mornin', all. I've been in contact with our friend on Norfolk Island, and we've exchanged a few emails with images - more than he has posted here, and I can confirm that what we have here is a genuine, correctly marked-up two-band Whitworth rifle, serial number D53X.

It appears to be in fair overall condition, and thankishly the irreplaceable woodwork looks fine, if somewhat dry. Advice has been sent about remedying that.

Metalwork has suffered, but all the stamps are identifiable, in particular the Whitworth manufacturing stamp of a wheatsheaf-topped crown.

All in all, a real gem, and a real conundrum as to how it ended up in the Northern part of New Zealand.

We'll keep you informed. :thumbsup:

tac

tac said:

The large crown on the lockplate usually has VR underneath it.

Click to expand...

IF it is a military issue firearm. Apologies for misleading anybody here.

tac

Just heard from Mr Minshall [thank you extensively, Sir], who tells me that this rifle is actually on Bill Curtis' data base of known Whitworths.

Whoopee!! :grin:

tac

There have been several Whitworth's noted in New Zealand with serial numbers around D365. They may have been imported as theatrical props in the early 20thC.

Besides the around 5,000 Whitworth rifles manufactured, there were over 8000 Whitworth-Enfields made (at Enfield) in 1863, in addition to an earlier much smaller batch. Some of these were issued for troop trials.

David

Mr Minshall, many thanks for all your help in trying to track down any history of this conundrum of a rifle.

As ever, your knowledge and expertise is greatly valued here. :thumbsup: :bow:

tac

D591 is currently up for sale and looking like new, a steal at £8750 :hmm:

Obviously I would buy it but it, but sadly it is marked Metford's Patent, so not hexagonal bore :idunno:

:rotf: