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BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6285
12-17-16 11:04 AM - Post#1603668    


I'm familiar with the haul of goodies found aboard the Arabia, which sank in 1858. Only recently heard of the Bertrand, which sank in 1865. The collection is housed at the De Soto National Wildlife Refuge. I am having a much easier time finding images from the Arabia cargo than the Bertrand. Has any seen the collection in person?

 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6285
12-18-16 05:50 PM - Post#1603912    

    In response to BillinOregon

Whoops, make that 1856 for the sinking of the Arabia.

 
tenngun 
Cannon
Posts: 6831
tenngun
12-19-16 10:25 AM - Post#1604018    

    In response to BillinOregon

I know the guys that found Arabia think they have found another. Ship wreak beads found a ship full of trade goods mostly beads off whasintons coast. One of Mc Kenzie's caches off McKenzie river in west Canada.

 
Scott_C 
36 Cal.
Posts: 88
Scott_C
12-19-16 07:04 PM - Post#1604137    

    In response to tenngun

Bill,

I've been to DeSoto several times and have a few pictures I've taken... What are you interested in there?



 
lwrhea 
32 Cal.
Posts: 33
12-26-16 07:12 AM - Post#1605122    

    In response to Scott_C

I've been to the Arabia museum and met one of the family. I also have their book on the excavation. It's very fascinating.

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1217
12-26-16 10:13 AM - Post#1605146    

    In response to lwrhea

I had a GGGGrandfather who was a riverboat captain on the Tennessee River. He is said to have had a contract to help move some of the Cherokee Indians to Missouri, where many of them began their walk to Oklahoma during Andrew Jackson's administration. His boiler blew up on the way home and the ship was lost. He ended up walking home.

I don't know where this happened, without doing some searching. I think he was still on the Mississippi River at the time. It probably wasn't buried by silt, but still there must have been a bunch of artifacts scattered somewhere. There must have been hundreds of steamboats lost in all those big cargo rivers, not to mention the various cargo and personal belongings that fell overboard. That river must be a treasure trove of artifacts if they ever figure out an easy way to get to them.

 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6285
12-26-16 03:11 PM - Post#1605196    

    In response to Native Arizonan

Scott: Clothing and footwear, particularly boots and winter coats. Thanks if you can help.



Arizonan, how rewarding would it be to locate what's left of your GGGGrandfather's steamboat?!

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1217
12-27-16 10:30 AM - Post#1605337    

    In response to BillinOregon

  • BillinOregon Said:


Arizonan, how rewarding would it be to locate what's left of your GGGGrandfather's steamboat?!



Of course it would be, but finding it would not be easy. There are other descendants of his that are trying to figure out the facts behind the story. I did some online research yesterday and I now realize there were dozens of recorded steamship catastrophes, and often the names of those involved were not recorded. Undoubtedly other catastrophes that did not cause loss of life were also not recorded, or if they were perhaps the once existing local papers are gone along with their records.

My ancestor in question was named James Wesley Hood. I located his name on one site, and he is listed as having been a pilot, rather than a captain, so I may have had that part wrong, or maybe the records are incomplete. They did not have the name of the ship he piloted, however, which is not to odd given he would have been piloting in the 1830s, and there are very few records of steamboats that early, no official government sources for records at that time, just the occasional mention in a newspaper that people have pieced together into somewhat of a list.

He had a landing named after him downstream from Kingston, TN, which was in a valley later flooded by the TVA, so it exists no more. The landing was originally named after an apparent partner or benefactor named Berry Chapman, but after the ACW, in which Chapman sided with the North and Hood sided with the South, it was officially changed to Hood's landing.

Chapman had a steamboat named the Holston, during the early 1830s, which was later bought by the extremely wealthy Cherokee, Joseph Vann and the name was changed to the Kingston. This boat may have been one my ancestor piloted, either for Chapman or Vann. It is believed to have been used for transporting Cherokee, but have not come across any record of it's demise.

Joseph (Rich Joe) Vann owned several steamboats, and died while captaining one of them, the Lucy Walker, that exploded in 1844 on the Ohio River near New Albany, IN.

One possibility for the stories surrounding my ancestor is that transporting Cherokees and the explosion were actually two different stories that ended up getting fused into a single family story. If this is the case, he may have been on the Lucy Walker. One source listed one survivor of that wreck as a J. Hood, which could have been my ancestor, or any other person by that name, but he is not listed as being on the crew. He certainly could have been, as the records went down with the ship, and what happened has been hard to put together, however some investigative journalism has been done on it.

  • Quote:
The destruction of the Lucy Walker is well documented, but nearly every source contains some contradictions, garbled names, or incomplete information. Eyewitnesses included Captain Dunham of the snag boat "Gopher, an anonymous gentleman from Baltimore, the pilot Capt. Thompson, and a group of ministers and laymen aboard the Lucy Walker. The latter told about their scary adventures during and after the explosion, but somehow failed to notice or mention that the owner of the vessel was an American Indian, that drinking and gambling was present, or that the boat was engaged in a race with another boat. Most of the newspaper accounts also failed to note this aspect of the accident. The owner of the ship was identified in most newspapers as Captain David Vann, possibly confusing him with a cousin of that name who had served as the Treasurer of the Cherokee Nation. This David Vann was a brother of Joseph ("Tenulte") Vann. Various sources provide estimates of fatalities widely ranging from 18 to more than 100 deaths. Albert Koch misheard the name of the vessel as "Louise Walker." Even the date of the accident has frequently been listed in error in many reference works, which have the date as October 22 or 25, 1844. Only the Cherokee sources note the role that "Rich Joe" Vann played in the sudden end of the Lucy Walker and his own demise.



This is an interesting read on the accident, as well as being about riverboats of the period, in general:

http://genealogytrails.com/ind/floyd/news-steam-boat.html

Evidently a chest full of tools from the Lucy Walker was found in 1940.

Edited by Native Arizonan on 12-27-16 10:31 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1217
12-27-16 11:49 AM - Post#1605360    

    In response to Native Arizonan

I just read another source that said the Lucy Walker had carried Seminole Indians from New Orleans to the Indian Territory, in 1843, the year it was built and the year before it exploded. So there was still Indian relocation going on even then.

Trying to look through the fog of time, with 4 generations of passing the story leaves a lot of possibilities open.

 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6285
12-27-16 04:17 PM - Post#1605400    

    In response to Native Arizonan

That is just fascinating stuff. Those boiler explosions were catastrophic. Hope your sleuthing leads to more gold!

 
Scott_C 
36 Cal.
Posts: 88
Scott_C
12-30-16 09:43 PM - Post#1606031    

    In response to BillinOregon

Bill,

I've been searching my photos and I'm not finding any clothing or footwear. If they were displayed, I missed it. Sorry.

 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6285
01-01-17 12:44 PM - Post#1606297    

    In response to Scott_C

Hey, thanks for looking, Scott, and have a great 2017.

 
FiremanBrad 
40 Cal.
Posts: 204
FiremanBrad
06-07-17 01:42 PM - Post#1631912    

    In response to tenngun

The Malta will be their next dig, near the town where I grew up, Malta Bend!!!

Hopefully they'll dig this next winter. They have determined location, and that it was headed UPstream, full of trade goods!!!

 
Native Arizonan 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1217
06-07-17 03:29 PM - Post#1631931    

    In response to FiremanBrad

The Malta should be of great interest, as it was carrying goods to the Yellowstone, including mostly trade goods for furs. It also went down in 1841, 15 years earlier than the Arabia. That was before the Oregon Trail Migration, the Mormon Migration, and the California Gold Rush.

Will there be a large cache of Hawken guns? Some early Colt revolvers? Period clothing and hats? Bowie Knives? it could answer a lot of questions.

 
BillinOregon 
Cannon
Posts: 6285
06-10-17 03:02 PM - Post#1632254    

    In response to Native Arizonan

That will be a real doozy. Hope Nat Geo or History Channel are all over it.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13721
Rifleman1776
06-11-17 11:04 AM - Post#1632333    

    In response to Native Arizonan

  • Quote:
Will there be a large cache of Hawken guns? Some early Colt revolvers? Period clothing and hats? Bowie Knives? it could answer a lot of questions.




Don't overlook basic necessities like salt, sugar, cloth, tools, etc.

 
Artificer 
Cannon
Posts: 6557
06-13-17 01:48 PM - Post#1632614    

    In response to Rifleman1776

  • Rifleman1776 Said:
  • Quote:
Will there be a large cache of Hawken guns? Some early Colt revolvers? Period clothing and hats? Bowie Knives? it could answer a lot of questions.




Don't overlook basic necessities like salt, sugar, cloth, tools, etc.



VERY much agree.

While I would love to see it on National Geographic or the History Channels, I think it would be much more important for us that ALL the contents are well catalogued and preferably photo's made available to the public. This is a time capsule of the fur trade era that should help explain many things.

Gus

 
PaulN/KS 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2490
08-15-17 07:31 AM - Post#1640285    

    In response to Native Arizonan

  • Native Arizonan Said:
The Malta should be of great interest, as it was carrying goods to the Yellowstone, including mostly trade goods for furs. It also went down in 1841, 15 years earlier than the Arabia. That was before the Oregon Trail Migration, the Mormon Migration, and the California Gold Rush.

Will there be a large cache of Hawken guns? Some early Colt revolvers? Period clothing and hats? Bowie Knives? it could answer a lot of questions.



And hopefully nobody left their mule tied to the railing when it went down.

 
Wes/Tex 
Cannon
Posts: 7787
Wes/Tex
08-15-17 11:43 AM - Post#1640324    

    In response to Native Arizonan

  • Native Arizonan Said:

Will there be a large cache of Hawken guns? Some early Colt revolvers? Period clothing and hats? Bowie Knives? it could answer a lot of questions.


One steamship or barge, depending on who's telling the story, went down in the Mississippi River taking about 200 of the original Whitneyville Walkers being
shipped out tot eh Regiment of Mounted Rifles in the 1840's. Now there's a worthwhile look for!

 
Billnpatti 
Cannon
Posts: 7272
Billnpatti
10-08-17 11:23 AM - Post#1647075    

    In response to Wes/Tex

When I was a young whipper snapper living in Corpus Christi in the 1950s, I used to hear of a sunken blockade runner from the Civil War that was located near the Bob Hall pier on Padre Island. Back then, several folks used to tell of finding lead printers type in the sand near the pier. It was part of the cargo of the ship. I don't know if anyone has ever done a decent study of the ship nor if any of the ship's cargo has been recovered. I would think it must have been but I know nothing of it.

 
Kansas Jake 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1156
11-02-17 09:56 AM - Post#1650084    

    In response to BillinOregon

My wife and I went to the Arabia museum in Kansas City yesterday. It was very fascinating to see all the material that is on display along with some of the remains of the boat. The condition of the items on display is extraordinary. I was also amazed how many of the items from all those years ago are very similar to items I saw as a kid growing up on a farm. Things didn't change much in 100 years. That leads to a question as to how much basic tools changed in the period from 1800 to 1856.

Axes and handles sold in 1856 look like axes we see in the hardware store today for example.

If you get to the Kansas City area, I would recommend see all the items there. Plus it is in the downtown area with many great eating places.

Edited by Kansas Jake on 11-02-17 09:57 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Coot 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3041
11-02-17 11:02 AM - Post#1650101    

    In response to Kansas Jake

Mrs Coot & I have also visited the museum and found it a wealth of info about the period. Re the tool handles, while they look much like todays, many changed from mostly round & straight to oval & curved earlier in the 19th century. Look up Blanchard lathe - invented early in the 19th c to speed/ease production of gunstocks (Blanchard's lathe could both turn oval cross sections and was a duplicating lathe that could follow a pattern). It didn't take long before these lathes were being used to automate the mass production not only of musket stocks but of tool handles and, once a pattern was made, it was just as easy to make the curved axe handles and oval pick handles that we are familiar with today. The Springfield Armory Museum and the Smithsonian both have working Blanchards.

 
skypilot39b 
36 Cal.
Posts: 78
skypilot39b
12-21-17 11:19 AM - Post#1658092    

    In response to Kansas Jake

Looks like the Army is sending me back to KS so I'll be able to spend some more time looking at the Arabia. I'm very much looking forward to being able to do more in the world of BP and Rondevous. NW Florida is a great place, but not so much for that part of history

 
Kansas Jake 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1156
12-21-17 04:03 PM - Post#1658147    

    In response to skypilot39b

Where are you headed? Leavenworth or Riley. I live in Manhattan which is next to Ft. Riley.

If you end up here, we will have to touch base.

 
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