1850s Knife for Emigrants

I found this knife picture that indicated that it was made in the 1850s in San Francisco.

Do you think that settlers might have carried or acquired anything similar for their journey?

The scales are stag.

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M.Price Knife

I would say in general yes, though I would wager wood handles more common. Barrels of cheap butcher knifes in that general shape were common.

Thread necro, I know. :wink: There was really no such thing as a "cheap" Michael Price knife. That is a simple one. Somespeculat that his father made the more "basic" blades like this one. Many of his were MUCH fancier with very expensive materials and elaborate handle construction. He and other San Fran guys like WIll and Finck were "knifemaker of the rich and famous" They made very high quality knives that were kind of "mens jewelry."

Hbcfusil said:

(click on the title)

Click to expand...

No clicking required. :wink:

I'd say overall it looks okay. Cutler rivets started being used mostly in the 1880's although there is some evidence they date to 1850 but that would be very rare. The sheath- might be machine stitched, which would be 1850 plus. The stamp with the city, not sure on that, obviously 1850 plus since that is when Price got started.

The funny thing is that on many Price knives, the makers mark is not straight like on that knife. You even see that on expensive ones which were the epitome of high knife art in their day. Bernard Levine says that for every real Price or Will and Finck knife out there, you may see anywhere from 25-50 fakes these days. I have seen info that the super fancy Price knives sold for as much as $150-200. Remember that the initial civilian price for an 1973 Colt was somewhere in the neighborhood of $17 and a Purdey under lever double gun was sold at a "discount"to a guy in Philadelphia in 1872 for like $280. Those were some pricey (pun intended) knives!!!! :shocked2: As for rivets, Price knives tended to use the "peened pin and washer" setup. We can't tell on this one because we only have a picture of one side of the handle.

The peened pin and washer- that was used on friction folders but I haven't seen it on scales of fixed bladed knives- any information would be welcomed.
Actually.....I'll have to check some books- maybe I've seen them on dags, HBC chief knives, etc.

Goodle "Michael Price knives."I see the type of setup used quite a bit,even on the fancy ivory, pearl and stone handles knives. With those, the pins appear to be peened and then the pin and washer are very carefully domed and polished. on the simpler knives, they kind look like well finished Loveless bolts like the one in the picture.

I did a bit of "research"and came up with an newspaper advertisement for Will and Finck . A "basic" hunting knife almost identical to that Price, but with "buck horn" scales sold for between $3 and $5 depending on blade length and whether or not it had an oval guard. I did a little extrapolating using the 1873 civilina sales price for a Colt SAA and the "street price" of its closest modern equivalent,a Ruger Vaquero. Using that terribly nonscientific method, I calculated that you could have gotten a 4 inch Will and Finck hunter for around $125 in 2017 dollars. At first glance, that seems to be in line with some of the specialty cutlery company knives like ones from Bark River. BUT, those SF knives tended to be forged and,it some cases, forged with remarkable skill. I don't know if anyone has recently tried to taper and forge the tang of a knife out wide AFTER the guard has been slipped on like you see with some of the "simpler" Michael Price full tang knives. Most modern makers just look at those and say "how the hell did they do that?" Point being that you can see how much more the cost of LABOR has gone up in the last 150 years compared to"regular" inflation. Even if you are not using stag and takeinto account the extremely depressed prices for custom knives these days because of an excess of supply from hobbyists, a hand forged custom/bench made blade like this has increased at double the rate of a firearm or more. Today, this would be like getting a basic Randall hunter for $125 as Price and Will and Finck appeared to have that type of reputation.

Too late edit. A larger knife the size of the onion the pic would have sold for between $3.50 and $4 back them, so it would be more like $150-175 in 2017 dollars. Contrast those sales prices with the $1.75-$2 that Colclesser Brothers got 40 or more years later for the original production Kephart knives.

A knife blade similar to the pictured one is available from Crazy Crow as the Appilachian knife in their knife making supplies section.

The blade shape and it's clip point counterpart were neither unique to SanFrancisco makers nor all that new in the early 1860's. What was different about those knives was that they were pretty heavy blades made for hunters with some disposable income. Even the simpler blades of those times often had ivory handle slabs. Bark River made a version of a Will and Finck blade and Mike Stewart says that the originals may have been the first purpose built heavy hunting knives produced in numbers in the US. That Appalachian knife is 1/16 thick. I would be surprised if any of those Price or W & F knives were any thinner than say 3/16.

At least for Texas & the SW, I suspect that the ordinary emigrant was carrying whatever knife that he could afford to buy or trade for (and at least early here in TX, the emigrants were mostly "dirt poor" & looking to start over.) - Most likely, that knife was a CHEAP English-made butcher knife.
Few emigrants were as "well off" as COL Jim Bowie, COL David Crockett or (Secretary of the Texas Navy) Robert Potter were & could afford to buy a custom-made blade.
(The first married couple in our family that arrived in Eastern New Spain in 1818 came from Holly Springs, MS with everything that they owned tied behind their saddles or packed on the "good young red mule" that the bride received as a wedding present. - Those young newlyweds were MUCH "better off", with 2 horses, a mule & "more than the clothes on their back", than MOST emigrants to New Spain, early Mexico & Texas. = Many an emigrant got to TX on "shank's mare".)

yours, satx

Jim Bowie was supposedly broke by 1836 and I have heard the same was true of Travis. With that said, Jim and his brothers apparently made a bunch of money for a while and some of the knives that Rezin supposedly gave to others like the Searles bowie given to Mr. Fowler would have fallen into that "manly jewelry" category.

COL Bowie was FAR from broke after he arrived in TX, as he "married MONEY" & his RICH father-in-law bankrolled his business ventures. - After his beloved wife/children died in an epidemic, he inherited all of her estate, as well.
(When his beloved lady/children died, Bowie went into what modern physicians would call a "severe clinical depression". - Bowie was nearly catatonic with grief for months after the death of his family.)

LTC Travis was a "failed lawyer" in SC but he had a thriving law practice in TX, if only because he was "the best of a poor lot".
(Btw, COL Bowie gave Travis a FANCY/custom-made blade in 1836.)

Note: Travis & Bowie despised each other.- It must have been "a trial" every day for that pair to be co-commanders of Fortress Alamo.

yours, satx

Hmmm. I had read that the Bowie brothers had made a lot of money, including some that may have been "dirty' because of allegations of buying "contraband" slaves that had been taken from Spanish ships by Lafitte et al, but I had also read that when his estate was settled, there wasn't a whole lot to settle.

I don't think that there is ANY doubt that "The brothers Bowie" (and other members of the Bowie family, including their mother) were at least "associates of" & "mixed up with" Jean Lafitte & numerous other criminals.
(Rezin was definitely a "sometime river pirate", gambler, "dealer in goods of dubious ownership", counterfeiter, broker of phony land titles & "livestock raider" with certain NA groups.)

yours, satx

Btw, there is at least one LONG thread on the forum about "Bowie's knives" & that (at least imo) would be worth your time to look up & read.

Nonetheless, such "blades of fine quality" were limited to the "well to do" gentlemen of the frontier, as most emigrants were too poor to acquire one unless they did so by "dubious means".
(Fyi, my cousin Beverly owns the ornate/obviously EXPENSIVE/coin-silver-mounted & engraved knife "of English manufacture", that one of our family's members brought home from TWBTS. - My GUESS is that he took it off a corpse, as it is a far too expensive item for an ordinary 19YO CPL to have purchased.)

yours, satx

A few might have been able to acquire a fancier knife, but I echo the sentiments of many, that most would have carried something akin to a simpler Green River knife. I think a Green River butcher pattern was being produced by that time.

Speaking of "fancy" blades, in New Spain, early Mexico & in the Texas Revolution/Republic era, knives/daggers/swords, which were imported from Spain were quite common.
Many of those blades were of excellent quality & numerous examples are "fancy".

One such (about 14" bladed & circa 1800) Spanish-made fighting knife, which is on display at The Alamo Shrine, is mounted with silver, "decorated with" gold & bears the engraved inscription on the blade, "El que ofenda mi honor tendra un largo sueno." OR (in English) "He who offends my honor will have a long sleep."
(Both the handle & sheath appear to be made of bone.)

yours, satx