British 6 pdr Restoration Help

This is our towns' Cannon, In the County of Essex, here in the UK. We're unsure of its history, but it's been in the town for well over a century. Being on the coast, we've had several old 18th.c hulks moored in the local creeks and rivers around here, including Darwins Beagle.
We (the town) are going to restore this little gun and we would like to identify what exactly it is and, possibly its age.
Also we are looking for some plans/dimensions for an appropriate carriage.
Can anyone be of assistance??
Many thanks. [/URL][/img] ]Link[/url]

Your gun appears to be a Carronade, but it would be great if you have a photo of the rear of the gun to confirm that. Carronades often/usually had a ring on the back that a retaining rope went through.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carronade

Gus

As requested! Overall length is 46", with a 4" Bore. ]Link[/url]

That is a Carronade all right. Most likely made by the Carron Company in Scotland, though it may have been made somewhere else in the UK. I could not track down the exact letters for the raised cartouche letters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carron_Company

Gus

Dave,

First of all, please understand I am NOT an expert on these guns but am an interested amateur. What I hope to do is give you some information and ideas and perhaps some questions that you and others may consider to ask others. Sometimes a good question to ask is very valuable.

Next, it is possible this gun is a “Gunade” rather than a Carronade. Both guns in this bore size were similar to the point that even during the time period, they may have been readily confused. (I am also not sure that Carronades were not made with trunnions as some sources state.) I will leave that to an expert on 18th/19th Naval Guns as to which is the best description of your gun. However, the use of your cannon would have been the same, no matter by what term it was/is “officially” known. The period of your gun could run from 1780 to 1850 and more on that later.

For some information on the difference between a Carronade and a Gunade, please scroll down to “3. Carronades” in the following link:
http://www.navyandmarine.org/ondeck/1800gundrill.htm
More information stating there were Carronades with Trunnions:
http://www.riv.co.nz/rnza/hist/car.htm

A Six Pound Gun like yours could have been a small Naval Gun on Small Ships of War like a Sloop of War, a gun used on Merchant Ships to ward off Pirates (or at least to get a lower insurance rate by having such guns aboard the ship), or perhaps as a land gun near navigable rivers or defend against armed landing boats. In each case, the appropriate gun carriage would have been different from other uses.

If the gun was used on land, then the Ne Plus Ultra carriage for it would have been an all Iron one as in the following link. However I may be wrong, but I doubt you want to go to that much trouble/expense and personally I think there no reason to do so.
http://www.shipspottersteve.com/blog/6-pounder-carronade-1800

The more common carriage for the gun when used on land would have been a wood carriage with Iron Rimmed Wood Wheels (Official Term was “Trucks” for naval gun carriages and not wheels, but I will use the term wheels for ease of understanding) or All Iron Wheels, though the latter is towards the end of the period of the gun’s use. Personally, I would suggest Iron Rimmed Wood Wheels for your project because they probably would be easier to make. It also looks like the two wheels on your gun have sheet Iron or steel wrapped around them in an effort to sort of replicate the Iron Rims. Iron Rimmed Wheels will stand up better to outside display than all Wood Wheels.

This link shows a Naval Gun with all Iron Wheels:
http://arc.id.au/Cannon.html

When a 6 lb. Carronade/Gunade with trunnels was used aboard ship, it would have been mounted on a Wooden Naval Gun Carriage with Wood Trucks/Wheels and WITHOUT Iron Bands around the Trucks/Wheels. Iron Bands on the Trucks/Wheels would have torn up the wooden ship’s decks too much. Here is a link to an original Gunade on a rather plain Naval Carriage that would probably be good for you to copy, except I suggest you add Iron Bands on the Trucks/Wheels if it will be displayed outside.
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2058-373/

I will borrow the following explanation on Naval Carriages.

“Naval or garrison carriages
These were designed for use aboard a ship or within a fortification and consisted of two large wooden slabs called "cheeks" held apart by bracing pieces called "transoms". The trunnions of the gun barrel sat on the top of the cheeks; the rearward part of each cheek was stepped so that the breech could be lifted by iron leavers called "handspikes". Because these guns were not required to travel about, they were only provided with four small wheels called "trucks", whose main function was to roll backwards with the recoil of the gun and then allow it to be moved forward into a firing position after reloading. Traversing the gun was achieved by levering the rear of the carriage sideways with handspikes.[2]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_carriage

Here is a link to photo’s of a reproduction naval carriage and a really good pattern that Zulu uses to make his naval carriages and shows many of the construction details. I am not sure if Zulu will sell you a set of plans for your gun carriage, but you could ask.

http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/276794/

For other help for a pattern/plans for a gun carriage, you might also try some of these links below to ask for help.
http://www.historicdockyard.co.uk/site-attractions/attractions/hms-victory
http://johnsmilitaryhistory.com/woolwich.html
http://www.museums.gov.gg/noondaygun

Hope this helps.

Gus

Hi there.
Why not put this on the MLAGB site (muzzle loaders association of Great Britain)
There are a number of members with experience of British artillery. Bill Curtis immediately springs to mind.
Regards
Simon

I have a very similar pair of Gunnades marked "FALKIRK 6 Pdr", which I presume to be by Carron. They are on the original sea service carriages and were made c1800 for the Reed Shipping Line sailing the South China Seas out of Cardiff :hatsoff:

That's a Gunade or Cannonade as I have seen them called in some cases. They were more a mix of a cannon and a Carronade. Carronades were larger and didn't have wheels if aboard ship. They also didn't have side trunnions. The recoil was less on the Carronades and Gunades for larger shot because of the internal design of the barrel, but coupled with a loss of effective range. And their lighter weight was why they didn't need wheels on the ships.

I would assume that the Gunades got wheels on ships because merchant ships were not usually built as rugged as a warship. And less time was spent training on the guns by a much smaller crew.

If you have seen Master and Commander, the gun used in the scene in the final battle where the young Midshipman and the doctor shoot a hole into the enemy frigate was a Carronade.

As before, on this Forum, I'm astounded by the quality and quantity of replies to my plea!
I will take all this information 'on board' and put it towards the guns restoration. When the gun is finally restored, I'll post some photos.
Again, many thanks for all your help. :thumbsup:

Thought of a few more things in addition to my earlier post.

If the gun will be displayed outside, I would highly suggest you use as many coats of Spar Varnish on the wood parts of the carriage, that the wood will soak up. Then you may want to roughen the surface and paint the wood parts with a good exterior grade paint, probably two or three coats, IF you decide you want to paint it. I would also suggest you clean the Iron parts and BOTH the outside and inside of the gun barrel and paint all these parts with a good exterior black paint. (Can't tell you how many times I've seen original guns where the preservation did not include the inside of the gun bore and it really hurt the gun as the bores "rotted out" from rust.) The folks who preserve the HMS Victory may give similar or better advice and I would suggest you contact them for more information.

Part of my interest in guns like these were that U.S. Marines often, if not usually manned at least one of the Guns on the Upper Fighting Deck like your cannon - on the ships they were stationed. This is different than what our British and later British Royal Marine Brothers did, as I understand they never crewed any of the Naval Guns. I have Gun Captained an original American Civil War period 12 lb. Napoleon Gun, but would LOVE to be in a crew for a gun like yours.

Gus

Rusted, missing their beds and not in the best of condition, but they are over 200 years old.

Many thanks for the photos of the carriages. Interesting to see the iron axles and the sides constructed from a single piece of wood, not 'layered'. ]Link[/url]

Artificer said:

I would also suggest you clean the Iron parts and BOTH the outside and inside of the gun barrel and paint all these parts with a good exterior black paint. (Can't tell you how many times I've seen original guns where the preservation did not include the inside of the gun bore and it really hurt the gun as the bores "rotted out" from rust.)


Gus

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Unfortunately, the bore has suffered over the years as there is a 'plug' of some sort about 6" in from the muzzle. This has allowed the bore to fill with water and run out over the lip at the bottom, causing some corrosion. We intend to remove the 'plug' and make a wooden one to fit into the muzzle to attempt to prevent further damage. We will also display the gun on a more horizontal plane, not muzzle up. ]Link[/url]

Squire Robin said:

Rusted, missing their beds and not in the best of condition, but they are over 200 years old.

Click to expand...

WOW, I am extremely envious of you.


What I love about this picture is it shows the Trunnion Straps and the Rope Rings on the sides and rear of the carriage and that proves this is a REAL period carriage, besides the obvious age of course. On too many repro carriages, they leave out the rings for the ropes that were used for “recoil stops” and rings for rope that the crew manning the gun pulled on to get the back forward after recoil from firing. I am saddened when repro carriages leave out details like that, because it does not show how the gun was actually used.

I really enjoyed looking at those pics and thank you very kindly for posting them.

Gus

Dodgydave said:

Unfortunately, the bore has suffered over the years as there is a 'plug' of some sort about 6" in from the muzzle. This has allowed the bore to fill with water and run out over the lip at the bottom, causing some corrosion. We intend to remove the 'plug' and make a wooden one to fit into the muzzle to attempt to prevent further damage. We will also display the gun on a more horizontal plane, not muzzle up. ]Link[/url]

Click to expand...

Sorry to see the corrosion at the muzzle, but it is not as bad as some guns I've seen that were 50 or more years newer than your gun. Great idea to pull the interior plug and add and exterior plug.

One way to ensure the muzzle is on a horizontal plane is to use a "Quoin" and that would make a great authentic addition to the carriage. (Have to admit I forgot the name of this piece and I had to look up the name for the wedge shaped block of wood with a pull handle on it that goes under the breech of the gun to raise/lower the muzzle.) There is a good illustration of an original one in the third picture down in this link. http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2058-373/

Oh, the stepped sides on the rear of the sides of the carriage, where handspikes were rested to raise and lower the breech, are called the “Quoin of Mire.” Never knew that until I looked up the word “Quoin.” :redface: :grin:

Gus

Dodgydave said:

We intend to remove the 'plug' and make a wooden one to fit into the muzzle to attempt to prevent further damage.

Click to expand...

I think the muzzle is designed to have a cup shaped doo-hickey plugged over it, rather a cork shaped doo-hickey plugged in to it :thumbsup:

Artificer said:

WOW, I am extremely envious of you.

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You are kind. I was meaning to fix them up, but I am now running out of time. Maybe my son or one of his kids will do them, I am going to leave them alone :thumbsup:

Just getting to this thread. Thank you, Dodgydave, Gus, and all, for an interesting, informative thread.

Prior to now, I have paid scant attention to ships' ordnance, yet they obviously played a most important role in history.

The widely varied interests, and extensive knowledge thereof, shown by fellow Forum members, continuously reinforces what a great place this Forum is. :hatsoff:

Richard/Grumpa

Dave, I am far from an expert on artillery but, I think what you have there is a cannonade. All of the reading that I have done shows carbonnades with the trunnions mounted below the center line of the bore. Some were even mounted with a single mounting point on the bottom of the barrel. They were usually mounted on a slotted mount with the ability to be traversed right to left. A cannonade was mounted on a carriage. And had thr trunnions mounted as yours are. As we all know nothing is always done the same way every time, so, I could be wrong. Anyway, you are one lucky guy with that piece. By the way the doo- hickey in the end of the barrel is a tompion just like on a musket. Good luck.

Squire Robin said:

Rusted, missing their beds and not in the best of condition, but they are over 200 years old.

Click to expand...

Wow....I bet your neighbor doesn't give you a whole lot of grief with that baby pointed in his direction! :haha: