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Login Name Post: BP handgun for hunting        (Topic#282461)
jaxenro 
40 Cal.
Posts: 456
09-06-13 06:34 AM - Post#1310968    


For game up to whitetail would you use a Lyman GPP in 54 or a walker with triple 7 and a Kaido bullet

Edited by Zonie on 01-03-14 11:23 PM. Reason for edit: CLOSED; I'm tired of telling folks to quit talking about modern cartridges

 
Squirrel Tail 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1316
Squirrel Tail
09-06-13 07:27 AM - Post#1310975    

    In response to jaxenro

Me personally, I would not use a bp handgun for whitetail. I don't know what the muzzle energy is of a Lyman GPP in 54, it might or might not be sufficient (someone else will surely chime in) but a .44 bp revolver with a maximum load is about the same as a modern .38 special, which is not something I'd hunt deer with.

So between the two, I'd go with the Lyman GPP in 54, but I'd like to know more before I'd actually commit to using that.

jmho

 
GoodCheer 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5961
GoodCheer
09-06-13 07:41 AM - Post#1310978    

    In response to jaxenro

For handgun hunting deer I'd rather have something made to suit me and the task. Modern production pistols aren't made for that. Military designs never were for deer hunting so the repros are lacking. But there's no reason a black powder pistol made to do the job wouldn't work great.

PS,
I went the custom route for rabbits in the 1980's.
Fine pistol. 9mm flintlock for round ball and bullets.


 
MSW 
Cannon
Posts: 6724
MSW
09-06-13 07:49 AM - Post#1310980    

    In response to jaxenro

I've heard of folks hunting boar with ROAs (Ruger Old Army) revolvers, and while I would want something a bit more potent for any sort of pig (pigs are incredibly tough), I don't see a problem with what you propose ... here's why:

if you're going to kill deer in the woods, the mechanism of their death is usually (but not always) blood loss. If you're shooting a centerfire cartridge, a boatload of tissue is damaged, blood vessels are severed or ruptured, blood pressure drops very suddenly, and the animal looses consciousness and exsanguinates. If you're using a lower velocity (but higher caliber) roundball or conical, you don't get as impressive a wound track, but you get a bigger hole, and pretty much the same thing happens.

To paraphrase the great Elmer Keith, you want to let a lot of air in and a lot of blood out.

Therefore, it is (in my opinion) a mistake to compare the ballistics of muzzle loaders to the ballistics of centerfire weapons. The later relies on creating a boatload of tissue disruption, whereas BP weapons make a bigger hole.

So, is a .54 out of a muzzle loading pistol "enough gun" for a whitetail? I would give this a qualified yes, with the proviso that the shooter does his or her part. [insert tirade about bullet placement here] ... clearly, if you put a 9/16 inch hole through the heart or lungs (or both) of just about any mammal, they're going to shuck off this mortal coil in a pretty big hurry. if you gutshoot the same animal with a 20mm, it will probably take the poor thing hours to die.

mind you, these are the ruminations of one guy ... just my free opinion, and no doubt well worth every penny ...

get close, shoot straight, make little white packages ...

make good smoke!


 
Squirrel Tail 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1316
Squirrel Tail
09-06-13 08:19 AM - Post#1310982    

    In response to GoodCheer

So your cat hunts rabbits with that pistol?

That's a nice looking gun, by the way.

 
rodwha 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1995
09-06-13 09:04 AM - Post#1310994    

    In response to Squirrel Tail

That is an absolutely false statement. A .44 cal cap n ball pistol loaded near max can have more velocity than a standard 45 Colt loading, which is well more than a 38 Spl.

I find it funny that so many people have been stating such nonsense as though it were factual. There's plenty of proof to the contrary if you look for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

There are many guys who use ROA's, the 1860 Army, 1858 Remington, Dragoon, and Walker for hunting hogs, with some weighing as much as 300 lbs.

When I first asked I was told this same thing. But I continued to look, and found there are actually many who have hunted whitetail and hogs with success.



 
rodwha 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1995
09-06-13 09:07 AM - Post#1310996    

    In response to GoodCheer

The Walker was designed to take down a horse was it not? Is that not also why the Army continued to use .44 cal pistols then? The Navy not concerned with horses, but men, used the .36 cal?

 
Squirrel Tail 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1316
Squirrel Tail
09-06-13 09:21 AM - Post#1311000    

    In response to rodwha

  • rodwha Said:
That is an absolutely false statement. A .44 cal cap n ball pistol loaded near max can have more velocity than a standard 45 Colt loading, which is well more than a 38 Spl.




Muzzle velocity isn't the issue, muzzle energy is. Of course as we all know with both center fire and bp guns changing bullet weight and charge changes muzzle energy, but typical comparisons are

.44 Remington with 3F and round ball: muzzle energy about 289 ft-lbs

.38 special: muzzle energy about 235 ft-lbs

.45 Colt: muzzle energy about 523 ft-lbs

.45 ACP: muzzle energy about 616 ft/lbs

so the muzzle energy of a cap and ball .44 is a lot closer to the muzzle energy of a .38 than it is to a .45, either .45 colt or .45 ACP.

 
rodwha 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1995
09-06-13 09:39 AM - Post#1311005    

    In response to Squirrel Tail

Not true at all.

A .44 with a RB and using Goex, Pyrodex, etc. has energy figures like that. But use Swiss, Olde Eynsford, or Triple 7 and those numbers climb quite a bit. In fact Mr. Beliveau's testing with T7 and a RB produced 371 ft/lbs of energy. Much higher than the figures you give, and that's with a reduced load through a ROA, which has similar capacity as an 1858 and 1860.

I'm not aware of a 45 ACP +P round with energy figures over 550 ft/lbs.

From Mr. Beliveau's testing with T7 a Lee conical and Kaido conical both produced nearly 500 ft/lbs of energy.

Edited by rodwha on 09-06-13 09:39 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
rodwha 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1995
09-06-13 09:43 AM - Post#1311007    

    In response to rodwha

There's a fellow who researched CW cartridge loads for the pistols who claims to have found that Swiss was on par with the energy of the powders used back then in the revolvers.

He gave authorization to share his work, but they are too long to submit in a post. I would be happy to email them to anyone wanting to read how he went about it all.

 
rodwha 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1995
09-06-13 09:47 AM - Post#1311009    

    In response to rodwha

The answer to the question then is it depends on what type of powder you would use.

If don't want to use an energetic powder than it's likely to not make a very effective weapon, though I've read of people using their .50 cal rifle, which has slightly higher energy figures at 125 yds, and getting complete passthroughs on deer, though a .490" RB certainly has a little more size and mass for a slightly bigger hole and better penetrating qualities.

By no means would I use a ball and Goex though.

But Goex pushing that 255 grn conical only produced 744 fps with 314 ft/lbs of energy, but it penetrated 10 one gallon jugs whereas the RB only penetrated 5 go them.

Not that one gallon jugs computes to flesh, but it does show that the weight gave it a significant increase in penetrating qualities.

But look at the difference that a reduced load of T7 gave vs a full load of Goex.

Edited by rodwha on 09-06-13 09:55 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Rusty_Nail 
45 Cal.
Posts: 517
09-06-13 09:54 AM - Post#1311011    

    In response to rodwha

Depends on what state you are in for what you can use also. PA has a minimum 50 cal. for ML handguns and big game.

 
rodwha 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1995
09-06-13 09:56 AM - Post#1311012    

    In response to Rusty_Nail

Indeed.

Here it is not loaded from the muzzle, and therefor cannot be used during muzzleloader season. But it can be used during standard season, and for hogs at any time. I can also carry it as a backup during muzzleloader season.

 
Squirrel Tail 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1316
Squirrel Tail
09-06-13 09:56 AM - Post#1311013    

    In response to rodwha

Well, I'm not going to argue with you about it.

Those are the numbers I have, upon which I base my original statement that .44 bp (using actual black powder) is similar to .38. All I can say is that I didn't just invent those numbers.

I've said for years that the three things people will get into very hot arguments about are religion, politics, and ballistics.

 
rodwha 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1995
09-06-13 10:04 AM - Post#1311016    

    In response to Squirrel Tail

Didn't invent the numbers...Just used weak powder.

I've seen that Swiss and Olde Eynsford (both actual BP) both give similar numbers to Triple 7 in 3F configuration through pistols.

Those numbers are well over what a 38 Spl produces, and very much like a 45 Colt loading (not cowboy action loads).

 
M38 
36 Cal.
Posts: 88
M38
09-06-13 11:51 AM - Post#1311040    

    In response to Squirrel Tail

  • Squirrel Tail Said:
So your cat hunts rabbits with that pistol?

That's a nice looking gun, by the way.



And a nice looking cat!

 
jaxenro 
40 Cal.
Posts: 456
09-06-13 12:00 PM - Post#1311043    

    In response to M38

As I said a Walker with triple-7 and a Kaido bullet which generates a lot of power - I would want to stay within close ranges as well

 
laffindog 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1785
09-06-13 12:12 PM - Post#1311046    

    In response to Squirrel Tail

".....the three things people will get into very hot arguments about are religion, politics, and ballistics."



Not hardly worth chiming in on this thread except to say that I personally know of people who have killed whitetail deer with single shot percussion .45 cal and .50 cal. pistols. Clean kills at short range. As was mentioned earlier, a hole through the heart/lungs is a kill shot. You don't need to blow an animal all to Hell, only poke a hole in the right spot and it will die.



 
Patocazador 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1841
Patocazador
09-06-13 04:53 PM - Post#1311100    

    In response to jaxenro

Last year I shot a small whitetail buck with a Ruger Old Army loaded with 30 gr. of Goex 3FG and a cast 255 gr. swc. It was a followup shot after my .50 cal. rifle's Hornady HP/XTP bullet fragmented on his shoulder bone without penetrating into his vitals. Luckily, he stood there for over a minute and allowed me to draw the pistol and shoot him through the lungs. He went ~ 50 yards and fell over. The pistol bullet did better at low velocities than the rifle shot did at high velocity.



Bullet placement is the key along with an adequately constructed bullet.

 
GoodCheer 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5961
GoodCheer
09-06-13 07:37 PM - Post#1311143    

    In response to Squirrel Tail

  • Squirrel Tail Said:
So your cat hunts rabbits with that pistol?

That's a nice looking gun, by the way.



Heh, you'd have to tie a pork chop around that rabbits neck.




 
theoldredneck 
40 Cal.
Posts: 261
09-09-13 05:25 AM - Post#1311689    

    In response to Patocazador

I confess to being new to muzzle loaders, but not to handgun hunting. Playing with muzzle loading handguns and doing side by side penetration test has given me a much greater respect for them. Given the right load and within ranges I'm comfortable with taking deer would not be a problem. I have more problems with the people that do not shoot enough to know their limits with gun of choice than the guns. Killing game should not be a matter of a lucky shot, but the combination of skill and determination to do it right. I pass on a lot of questionable shots because I have helped find gut shot and crippled deer where people didn't.

 
Dan Phariss 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4622
Dan Phariss
09-09-13 12:27 PM - Post#1311752    

    In response to jaxenro

Deer are not that hard to kill. 50-54 with a decent charge will do the job.
Colt Dragoons were used to run buffalo back in the day. But I would still rather use something like this for a hunting pistol.


Energy is virtually meaningless as a gauge of killing power at BP velocity levels so don't get too impressed with the numbers.

Dan

 
Billnpatti 
Cannon
Posts: 7229
Billnpatti
09-09-13 12:57 PM - Post#1311762    

    In response to jaxenro

I would rule out the revolver for deer. in my opinion, it just doesn't have enough knock down power to guarantee a clean kill. The .54 GPP can kill a deer but you are talking about stalking up to something less than bow range. The pistol lacks the accuracy or knockdown power to make a clean kill much beyond about 25 yards. If you decide to actually try hunting with a pistol, be sure that it is legal where you are hunting. Game laws have some real teeth. Then do not pull the trigger until you are absolutely certain that the ball will strike in a kill zone and not someplace where the deer will escape and die slowly and painfully. It is your ethical responsibility as a hunter to make clean kills.


 
swathdiver 
45 Cal.
Posts: 950
swathdiver
09-09-13 08:23 PM - Post#1311902    

    In response to Billnpatti

Energy means little when we're talking about dead soft round balls. There's no comparison between a hard cast .38 special and a .454 soft lead round ball fired from a cap and ball revolver. The wound channel is going to be devastating, especially if that soft lead strikes bone and flattens out. It'll quickly take the fight out of most anything.

Seems governments have fallen for the energy trap too and now exclude the same guns our ancestors successfully took game with for hundreds of years.

Even ole Elmer Keith knew that .44 pistol shots did more damage to game than modern rifles.

I'll also reiterate for those not up to date, the latest ballistic tests with .44 round ball, modern powder and conical bullets has them in .41/.44 magnum territory. With such a load a hunter has nothing to fear from ANY North American game.

Edited by swathdiver on 09-09-13 08:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Dicky Dalton 
40 Cal.
Posts: 399
Dicky Dalton
09-09-13 10:15 PM - Post#1311927    

    In response to swathdiver

Umm, I hate to be this way as I have something like 18 black powder guns that I love to shoot etc. but, I also have more modern guns, including 44 magnums. There is absolutely no way on earth you can say that any of my Old Armies or any Colt Walker with any load can keep up with one of my 44 Magnums. Sorry, not today or tomorrow either.

 
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