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Login Name Post: Unpatched RB Article        (Topic#276944)
blackelm 
40 Cal.
Posts: 250
01-28-13 05:03 PM - Post#1244954    


I was just re-reading the 1995 Edition of the "Handloader's Digest." In it there is an article by well known cast bullet experimenter and author C.E. Harris on loading oversize, unpatched round balls on top of an Ox-Yoke wad.

His results were no leading, high velocities and and average group of 2" at 50 yards in .36, .45, .50 and .54 caliber guns with !:66 and !:48 twists.

For example, he used .375 balls in a .36 caliber Seneca and .457 balls in a T/C Hawken.

Has anyone on this Forum tried it?

 
Mooman76 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3125
01-28-13 07:30 PM - Post#1245031    

    In response to blackelm

I have been meaning to try it but haven't got around to it yet. I read the same article. Some say the patched RB was a later invention, maybe in the US using thin leather.

 
blackelm 
40 Cal.
Posts: 250
01-28-13 07:44 PM - Post#1245042    

    In response to Mooman76

The interesting thing about the article is that after he seated the ball with a short starter, the rifling engraved ball slid down the bore as easily as if it had been wrapped in a patch.

I'm going to try the loading in a .45-caliber Seneca using .457" round balls and see what happens.

The unpatched RB load comcept really is intriguing

 
snowdragon 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3286
snowdragon
01-28-13 07:53 PM - Post#1245045    

    In response to blackelm

I can recall three times when I've thrown bare balls down the bore for a quick dispatch on down and suffering animals. No wad, just ball on powder. I could tell by the lack of penetration, lack of damage, and by the sound that there was a significant loss of velocity. That's my only experience with unpatched balls. Bill

 
Cynthialee 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4985
Cynthialee
01-28-13 09:49 PM - Post#1245087    

    In response to snowdragon

an over powder fiber wad will conserve alot of the energy for ya and an over ball fiber wad will keep the ball from coming off the charge.

I have no chrono but with a bare ball and wads I can feel that the recoil is similar to a prb. Just a bare ball on powder without wads and you can tell from the way the recoil feels it isn't as powerful as with a wad.
{Insert witty phrase or saying here}



 
PowderShooter1836 
36 Cal.
Posts: 50
PowderShooter1836
01-28-13 11:19 PM - Post#1245113    

    In response to blackelm

That's how blackpowder revolvers are shot. I shoot my Ruger Old Army with a wonder wad and a .457 roundball down a .44 barrel. The barrel shaves off the ball to create a seal. Used to use crisco over each ball but wonder wads are much more convenient and cleaner. I don't see why the same wad/no patch setup couldn't work for a rifle.

Edited by PowderShooter1836 on 01-28-13 11:24 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Matt85 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1538
01-29-13 04:34 AM - Post#1245159    

    In response to PowderShooter1836

ive read an article about hessian jaegers using unpatched balls durring the rev war. i dont seem to have saved the article. any one know what im reffering too?

-matt


 
Many Klatch 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3245
Many Klatch
01-29-13 12:19 PM - Post#1245299    

    In response to blackelm

I have shot bare ball out of a rifle when I needed to get a fast shot off in a post shoot. Once the gun gets dirty they shoot pretty close to Point of Aim. Not sure I'd want to make it a regular practice.

Many KLatch

 
Loyalist Dave 
Cannon
Posts: 6029
Loyalist Dave
01-29-13 02:18 PM - Post#1245343    

    In response to Many Klatch

  • Quote:
ive read an article about hessian jaegers using unpatched balls durring the rev war. i dont seem to have saved the article. any one know what im reffering too?




Yes, but in my opinion it's an erroneous conclusion to what somebody witnessed. (iirc) The writer saw two jaegers powding down on a loading rod with a mallet. Folks who have read this then sometimes conclude the Jaegers were using oversized ball..., and additional conclusions are then drawn, such as "The jaeger rifles were inferior to American long rifles as the bullet had to be pounded into the muzzle when loading", or "It took longer for the Jaegers to load their rifles as they had to pound each bullet into the muzzle".

The flaw is that what is reported is two men with one rifle, plust the fact that loading mallets are never found in Jaeger inventories nor mentioned in any other source.

Now I have seen folks using a mallet on a reproduction rifle, when the ball got stuck in loading, to force the ball down to the powder charge so the barrel could be cleared. Even if I am incorrect in recollection, and it was only one man..., it's more plausible that he was forcing a jammed, patched ball past fouling, rather than loading an oversized, bare ball by swaging it into the bore of his rifle.

Jaeger rifles were often provided flip-up sights for firing in excess of 100 yards, and some are marked out to 200 meters. Would rough swaging of a round ball give you that kind of accuracy?

LD

 
Maven 
45 Cal.
Posts: 790
Maven
01-29-13 02:19 PM - Post#1245344    

    In response to Matt85

"I was just re-reading the 1995 Edition of the "Handloader's Digest." In it there is an article by well known cast bullet experimenter and author C.E. Harris on loading oversize, unpatched round balls on top of an Ox-Yoke wad."

Matt, It may be the above article as Harris recently mentioned this ("loading Hessian style") on the Cast Bullet Association forum.



 
Many Klatch 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3245
Many Klatch
01-29-13 03:00 PM - Post#1245364    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

The Hessian's used lead balls with the patch already sewn on the ball. That could be hard to start depending on the combination. From a distance you wouldn't be able to see that the patch was on the ball.

Many Klatch

 
Matt85 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1538
01-29-13 04:23 PM - Post#1245396    

    In response to Many Klatch

  • Many Klatch Said:
The Hessian's used lead balls with the patch already sewn on the ball. That could be hard to start depending on the combination. From a distance you wouldn't be able to see that the patch was on the ball.

Many Klatch



ive never heard of this, interesting! this would cut down on load time for sure. do you have any more info on this?

-matt


 
Cowboy2 
40 Cal.
Posts: 266
01-30-13 02:16 PM - Post#1245747    

    In response to Matt85

Just finished reading A Conquering Spirit, about the Fort Mims Massacre, and it mentions (via contemporary account of one of the survivors) that one of the defenders (Dixon, I think) had sewn leather patching around his rifle balls and boiled them in oil to allow for quick loading. First time I'd ever heard of such a thing.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13328
Rifleman1776
01-31-13 08:45 AM - Post#1245962    

    In response to blackelm

  • blackelm Said:
The interesting thing about the article is that after he seated the ball with a short starter, the rifling engraved ball slid down the bore as easily as if it had been wrapped in a patch.

I'm going to try the loading in a .45-caliber Seneca using .457" round balls and see what happens.

The unpatched RB load comcept really is intriguing



When my wife and I shot a lot of serious competition we used Douglas barrel stocked TC 'hawken' and Seneca in .45 cal. Our standard ball was a patched .457.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 13328
Rifleman1776
01-31-13 08:50 AM - Post#1245964    

    In response to Loyalist Dave

  • Quote:
loading mallets are never found in Jaeger inventories nor mentioned in any other source.




This Jaeger discussion could go far afield. Personally, I never say "never".
There are examples of Jaegers that used bare balls pounded down the bore with mallets. I have seen some. But, like modern gun home made wildcats, they were almost always individuals and certainly exceptions to the rule. Jaegers have used patched round balls since before dirt was invented.

 
ebiggs 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3893
ebiggs
02-01-13 08:44 AM - Post#1246327    

    In response to Rifleman1776

I would also expect it to lead the barrel and lead it badly. You can't put lead through the barrel if it comes into direct contact and not leave lead behind. At least I can't. Not even in un-patched (un-cupped) shot gun charges.


 
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