Self Priming Flintlock

Now this is nothing new, nor is it really my idea.

Thanks to the wonders of free e-books I have been reading a lot of 18th and 19th century books on guns.

The idea of shaking the powder out of the touch hole is nothing new but it caught my eye when a work was talking about slanting faced breech plugs (i.e. at 45 degrees as seen from above) with the narrow end near the touch hole.

This sparked a memory that pyrodex pellets have a black powder base for initial combustion.

So I wonder if it would be reliably feasible for a flintlock, made with such a slanting base and a generous touch hole, to be used together with a pre made charge (as they did with paper cartridges) which has some finer black powder at one end and the rest in normal granulation.

The idea being that one raises the barrel vertically to load it in the normal way. Open the charge and pour it down the barrel fine powder first. Possibly tap the butt on the ground once. Then load the ball as usual.

Now would this routinely let enough priming powder enter the closed priming pan during the loading?

Now someone will comment that they load and prime with 1F and never need a finer primer but I would not want the touch hole any larger than necessary.

So, just a thought. Discuss. As they used to say in examinations.

Native Ameicans were known to have enlarged the touch hole to a point where they could load powder and ball and smack the breech to send powder into the pan-ON HORSEBACK!

Duane

yulzari said:

Now someone will comment that they load and prime with 1F and never need a finer primer.

Click to expand...

That would be me. :grin:

I load and prime with 2F (or 3F). No need for a finer priming powder.

And, I don't see the point in spending the time to mix two grades of powder, then trying to shake power out of the hole and into the pan? What is the advantage to this process?

Another attempt at futility and why do it? Not the least, the fact, it may not be a safe practice to do in the first place. :td:

Also accuracy may suffer. You simply don't know how much of your charge is going to fill your pan. I had opened up my touch hole to the point my gun was self charging. I had intended to open the flash hole together 0.070 with my number50 drill bit. Wobble or too much external coning left me with a self charging pan. Some ranges feel its a safety hazard to have a primed flintlock on the line. I'm not too happy loading with a self priming gun. I would stop the touch hole as I loaded. I did enough shooting to realize that accuracy was much poorer. I'm back to a new touch hole with a 1/16 or 0.062 diameter touch hole.

Self priming was a military practice where rate of fire overrode the safety concerns.

I don't recommend deliberately modifying your gun for self priming.

I saw a flintlock at a gun show with at least a 1/8" touch hole. That should definitely have no problem self priming!

My Bess has had thousands of shots put through it. The touch hole is about 3/64". When it is clean and I put the first load down the barrel it will kick out enough 2F powder through the touch hole that if the frizzen was closed it would self-prime. It is always interesting to hear the patter of powder grains on the dry leaves in the fall when I load.

After the first shot the hole kind of closes up and I don't get the spray of grains anymore. I load my Bess with 2F and prime with 2F. My reflexes are slow enough that I can't feel any delay.

A big touch hole is fast. If you are losing power due to the size of the touch hole, add more powder. Don't try to reinvent the wheel, keep it simple and enjoy shooting.

Many Klatch

What military used self priming guns? In loading a Brown Bess You tear open the catridge, then prime from it, and the rest goes down the barrel. Not what we consider safe today, but was the common method of loading at the time for most militaries.

I'm bettin' you meant 3/32 (.094) instead of 3/64 (.047) ?

3/64 would be too small to allow over a few granules of 2Fg powder to slip thru.

The touch hole in my Bess is so big that I can't use 3F because it squirts out of the vent when I ram the ball down. With 2F, just like Many Klatch, I can hear a few grains coming out on the first shot. I have not measured the size of my vent.
I suppose it would be self-priming if I were to load 3F with the frizzen closed but, as someone already mentioned, that is not a safe practice.

If one were to make cartridges with a bit of 4F at the bottom I think the 4F would most likely squirt out the vent just like 3F does in my Bess. There again, the frizzen would need to be closed to catch it, making for an unsafe condition during loading.
If the vent is large enough to allow powder to fall thru when shaken or slapped it will be large enough to allow the powder to blow right out during the ramming of the ball.

There were several Brunswick regiments that opened the toucb hole. Saved them from the step of priming the pan. When its a question of rate of fire, saving several steps can be important.

Zonie, yeah you're right, that new math messes me up every time. :grin:

Many Klatch

I used to have a rifle that self primed. I had to keep the frizzen closed to retain powder or didn't know how much powder blew out the TH. Some stick a feather or toothpick in the TH to stop self priming. It can be dangerous without a hammerstall.

With 1/16" touch holes I don't get self priming using 3fff black powder. I think self priming with 3fff powder may start with TH's 5/64" and larger. Use a feather or toothpick some clubs reqire loading with the frizzen open.

Just for the sake of discussion, at our club a self priming gun is considered unsafe and you wuld be politely asked to not load and shoot it.

Our rules say that guns should not be primed or capped until the shooter is at the line with the muzzle pointed down range.

I load my flintlock guns with the frizzen open. On my Henry I noticed a small smattering of powder near where the butt sits when loading. After several shots there was a build up so I knew that I was losing powder (3F) thrugh the touch hole. I replaced it and drilled to 5/64".

Wick Ellerbe said:

What military used self priming guns? In loading a Brown Bess You tear open the catridge, then prime from it, and the rest goes down the barrel. Not what we consider safe today, but was the common method of loading at the time for most militaries.

Click to expand...

Mad Anthony Wayne's Legion asked to use self-priming guns in the Northwest Indian wars. He sent a letter to President Washington requesting permission to open up the touchholes on the old Charlevilles. Washington did not approve.

High end, English, Late Flint Shotgun with port in the pan cover, presumably, to allow powder to flow into the pan and provide the prime. I can see this being used in an effort to speed up loading a bit in a hectic driven shoot.

An article on the Manton V-pan lock...
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html

The British made self priming shotguns. Just enlarge the vent and close the frizzen and pushing down the wads or projectiles will fill it.
The reason for thumping the butt on the pommel of the saddle when loading horse back (running buffalo in this case) was to SEAT THE BALL on the powder without a rod. They would dump a charge in the barrel spit a ball in the muzzle then thump it to send down. Then point and shoot in one motion. Its detailed by Parkman in "The Oregon Trail".
The problem with large vents is that in normal loading they tend to blow a greater or lesser amount of powder out on the ground if the frizzen is open AS IT SHOULD BE since few modern locks have a "dog" or a stalking safety.
If you want to load and shoot faster and easier buy a breechloader.
Dan

When I first saw the heading for this string I thought it was about a different kind of self priming.
There was an experimental Harpers Ferry musket that had the normal frizzen replaced by a priming magazine that allowed a turn of a thumbscrew to charge the priming pan. Somewhere I have a book that has a good picture of it. Wish I could find it.
Anyway, you can sort of get the idea by watching the video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtlUDF8hzIk

At around 3:27-3:28 you will notice that the musket at the bottom of the frame has a really weird looking frizzen. That’s the one.

For those of you unfamiliar with the Fuller Gun Collection, it’s at the Visitor’s Center at Chickamauga Battlefield. The collection is enough reason to visit the battlefield by itself. The first time I saw it the guns were mounted horizontally. Displayed vertically as they are now it loses something. Still worth the visit though. I might make the drive again Easter weekend.

Thank you Randy Johnson

Next time I am in USA.......
My USA emigrant ancestors feature more in the deserters list than the medal one I gather.