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Login Name Post: Ohio CW Musket        (Topic#272694)
vtbuck223 
40 Cal.
Posts: 265
09-15-12 12:17 PM - Post#1190846    


Can someone remind me how these model 1816's made it to Ohio...and who was contracted to do the conversions? I have seen quite a few of the Ohio marked muskets...but not so from any other midwestern states...did Ohio get most of these muskets or have I just not seen those from other states? Thanks for your help.



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KanawhaRanger 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3370
09-15-12 12:46 PM - Post#1190856    

    In response to vtbuck223

It was probably bought for the Ohio militia through the Militia Act of 1808, though it's also possible that Ohio purchased it along with others directly from the Whitney armory itself. There is also the possiblity that it was issued at the beginning of the Civil War from one of the various arsenals and earmarked for Ohio troops. I would lean towards one of the first two scenarios.

I can't read the date on the lock, but I notice that it is stamped P& E W Blake which would make the date no earlier than 1826. They were Eli Whitney's nephews who were also members of the Board of Trustees who managed the Whitney factory after his death for a few years. Little Eli took control in 1841, but I believe at that time the Blakes had moved on and were making door locks and stone crushers. I'm not sure how many M1816 muskets are marked with their names but there are pieces known dated at least to 1828.

I've seen several photos of soldiers from other modwestern states with US smoothbore muskets (not sure how many were actually '16 models). It does seem from what I've seen that Illinois troops were often armed with M1854 Lorenz rifles though.

The conversion method used here (cone in barrel or French) was the one used by US arsenals. Most likely this musket was turned in for alteration at a government facility and that may give us another reason why it is stamped with an Ohio ownership mark. If a batch of muskets were turned in, it would prevent (or should anyways) it getting re-issued to another state who also had arms being altered. It identified those particular arms as belonging to Ohio.


 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-15-12 03:29 PM - Post#1190904    

    In response to KanawhaRanger

The Whitney 1822 first contract muskets with the P & E.W.Blake markings on the lockplate were made circa 1826-1830.Quantity of aprox.15,000.The second contract muskets from 1830 on the lockplates will be marked E.Whitney.

There is a group of Whitney muskets that were assembled from parts that did not meet full inspection standards circa 1842,around 1000 of them.It is thought they were sold to a state for militia use but at present remains unknown

The "Belgian Alteration" as used on your musket was the only one used specifically by the National Armories.It was done early to mid 1850s.Some research into the Ohio Adjutant General's reports might turn up some information regarding arms purchases by the state.

Many of the state regiments that served in the Western Theatre in the Civil War were equiped with smoothbore muskets up until the end of the war.
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-15-12 03:47 PM - Post#1190906    

    In response to Scots Jim



SERIES 147. VOLUME 23. ADJUTANT GENERAL.
Correspondence to the Governor and Adjutant General of Ohio,
September 19, 1861-January 22, 1862.
September 19, 1861
James W. Ripley, Brigadier General, Ordnance Office, Washington, D.C. To Governor William Dennison. Copy of a letter stating that in answer to Dennison's letter dated September 18 relative to procuring arms and accoutrements and equipments for Ohio troops, he had to say that such supplies, so far as they were necessary for troops which had been or might be authorized by the Government to be raised in Ohio for the service of the United States, could be procured or contracted for by Dennison or such persons as he might designate for that purpose at rates not exceeding those paid at the time by the Government for similar articles and would be paid for on proper vouchers in such funds as the Treasury Department might provide for the purpose. Together with a copy of a memorandum by Mr. Wolcott stating that bills for all purchases made under this authority should be made out in duplicate directly to the United States by the seller, and that each bill should be receipted with a statement to this effect added thereto. Together with a copy of a letter from Dennison stating that certain articles were purchased under authority of a letter dated September 19, 1861 and addressed to him by Brigadier General Ripley, and certifying that the same had been inspected and received by him and were to be issued to Ohio volunteers now mustered into the service of the United States.
3 pp. [Series 147-23: 96]
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
vtbuck223 
40 Cal.
Posts: 265
09-15-12 05:23 PM - Post#1190936    

    In response to Scots Jim

Thanks guys for the great information. The lock is marked 1829....and being that it was an arsenal conversion...it must have been a musket from that original contract of 15,000 and still deemed serviceable for use in the Civil War. I wonder how many muskets were thus marked with the Ohio stamp?


 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-15-12 09:06 PM - Post#1191030    

    In response to vtbuck223

Here's a little info on Ohio arms-



I have included a few clips from the Executive Docs. where a list of muskets appears within each year. Although these are just the tip of the iceberg it should give the reader some sort of insight of what kind of muskets were under state control when the war began and when a transfer of arms was executed in 1863. For more and detailed information please visit the library at the Ohio Historical Society. For 1863 I included a list of muskets transferred to the state by the federal government. For the past two years I've been keeping a list of identifiable muskets where I've seen the Ohio Mark. Most match the list of arms transferred in 1863 but a few have escaped me. Maybe someone out there who has more knowledge on this topic can shed some light on it.

As for how the Ohio mark found its way on various arms remains to be seen. I once heard that most of these arms had to have been stamped early in the war. From what I have seen up to this point I haven't found any conclusive evidence that even suggests that Ohio owned such a large stock pile of arms. (At least not until 1863) Most of the evidence leans towards the US Ordnance Department providing Ohio the arms it needed so it could arm its regiments in 1861-1862. Then again maybe someone else has seen an article or report that says otherwise. However, if the arms did belong to Ohio and Ohio was using the mark to identify its property than I think there should be a US M1861 Springfield Rifle or a carbine used by the cavalry with the same mark. As for the arms being collected and held in storage and marked accordingly from 1862-65 remains to be seen also. As you will see Ohio was acting as an agent for the US Ordnance Department until September 1863. According to the evidence I have seen thus far all the arms held by Ohio belonged to the Federal government... not the state. Finally, the arms transferred to Ohio in 1863 were suppose to arm the state militia. It was this transfer that would haunt Ohio until about 1876 before it would receive the new Springfield 45/70. Most of the arms that were transferred to Ohio in 1863 were still on the books until 1881. This provides a timeframe when the mark could have possibly been used. As for the mark being applied during the war... no evidence yet. Like I said before, I have a huge pile of documents to go through. Hopefully someday I will be able to report back with some kind of evidence.

Ohio Historical Society
FLM 293
Executive Documents, annual reports of Ohio 1861

Page 583
During the period of eight months, from April 15th to Decemeber 15th, there has been received from the United States, for the use of troops called into active service, the following ordnance and ordnance stores, viz:
Page 584
U.S. muskets altered to percussion 26,533
U.S. muskets new percussion, 69 calibre 15,020*
Percussion rifle muskets, 69 calibre (Pondir’s) 4,991
French rifles 69 calibre 948,
French rifles 57 calibre 1,000
Saxony rifle muskets, 71 calibre 2,680
Sword bayonet rifles 894
Enfield rifles1,480
Smooth-bore Prussian muskets 5,020

Page 584
There has been received at the State Arsenal, on account of purchases made and for the State of Ohio, from April 15th to December 15th, 1861, inclusive, the following mentioned articles:
Page 585
Infantry
Enfield rilfes 11,480
Long-range Whitney rifles 420

All the bills for purchases by the State will be charged to the United States, and the distribution of the stores reported to the United States in our property return, so that the State is acting merely as agent for, or co-operating with, the General Government.
I presume it is not expected that any of the property thus turned over to the United States troops will ever be returned directly to the State.

Ohio Historical Society
FLM 293
Executive Documents, annual reports of Ohio 1862

Page 443
Ordnance Stores Received From January 1, 1862, To December 31, 1862, Inclusive;
(From U. States Arsenals And Officers)
Page 444
Infantry
U.S. percussion muskets, smoothbore 362
U.S. altered to percussion muskets, smoothbore 1,708
U.S. Percussion muskets, 69 cal., rifled 966
U.S. rifle muskets, “Springfield,” 58 cal 12,981
Enfield rifle muskets, angular bayonet 23,032
Rifle muskets, “Pondir’s” 69 cal. 706
French rifle muskets, 69-71 cal. 7,414
Austrian rifle muskets, 54 cal. 23,956
Austrian rifle muskets, 58 cal. 9,870
Austrian rifle muskets, 69-71 cal. 10,875
French rifle muskets, saber bayonet, 58 cal. 1,200
Jager rifles, 54 cal. 400
Prussian smoothbore muskets 10,623
Prussian rifles, brown, 69 cal. 100

Page 445
Purchased by the State of Ohio Under Authority of the War Department, from January 1, to December 31, 1862, Including deliveries on contracts made in 1861.
Page 446
Infantry
Enfield rifle muskets 1,500

Ohio Historical Society
FLM 293
Executive Documents, annual reports of Ohio 1863

Page 536
About the first of August application was made to the Secretary of War to relieve the State authorities from any further charge of ordnance stores belonging to the General Government… The transfer was perfected on the first of October 1863, since which time all stores belonging to the General Government, though retained in the State Arsenal, have been under the exclusive control of the Ordnance Department at Washington, and issues therefrom made by a regular Ordnance officer of the United States… The only care and responsibility of this department, as to Ordnance, is now confined to the arms, accoutrements and ammunition received by the transfer from the General Government.

Page 613
Memorandum of stores transferred by the United States to the State of Ohio “on account of any quota due or to become due, under the law of 1808, for arming and equipping the whole body of the Militia,” with the value thereof, as appraised by Captains Todd and Treadwell of the Ordnance Department, under instructions from the Chief of Ordnance. Transfer made September 24, 1863.

320 U.S. rifles, sword bay’t, cal. 54, serviceable at $17...$5,440 00
176 U.S. rifles, sword bay’t, cal. 54, bay’ts wanting, at $12..2,112 00
329 U.S. rifles, no bayonet, cal. 54, want repairs, at $12……3,948 00
700 light French rifles, sword bayonet, new, at $18.50……..12,950 00
1,500 U.S. rifle muskets, altered, cal. 69, want repairs, at $4…6,000 00
154 U.S. rifle muskets, altered, cal. 69, irreparable……………
1,939 U.S. rifle muskets, model’42, cal. 69, serviceable, at $12……23,268 00
182 U.S. rifle muskets, model’42, cal. 69, want repairs, at $12......2,184 00
1,210 Austrian rifle muskets, cal. 58, serviceable, at $10………...12,100 00
1,661 Austrian rifle muskets, cal. 54, serviceable, at $9………….14,949 00
2,178 Austrian rifle muskets, cal. 54, want repairs, at $9…………19,602 00
632 Belgian rifle muskets, cal. 69, serviceable, at $9…………..5,688 00
38 Belgian rifle muskets, cal. 69, irreparable ………………...
2,402 French rifle-muskets, cal. 69, want repairs, at $8…………19,216 00
100 French rifle-muskets, cal. 69, irreparable………………….
2,346 French rifle-muskets, cal. 71, want repairs, at $8…………18,763 00
400 Jager rifles, sword bayonet, cal. 54, serviceable, at $10……4,000 00
567 U.S. smooth bore muskets, model’42, serviceable, at $9…5,103 00
392 U.S. smooth bore muskets, model’42, want repairs, at $9…3,523 00
4,096 U.S. smooth bore muskets, model’22, want repairs, at $4….16,384 00
549 U.S. smooth bore muskets, model’22, irreparable…………..
194 Prus. and Sax’y rifle-mus., cal. 70-71, serviceable, at $8…..1,552 00
1,454 Prus. and Sax’y smooth bore muskets, cal. 70-71, serviceable, at$7.50...10,905 00
4,212 Prus. and Sax’y smooth bore muskets, cal. 70-71, want repairs, at $5.00..21,060 00
783 Prus. and Sax’y smooth bore muskets, cal. 70-71, irreparable..............
$208,757 00
From which is deducted the sum of 75 cents each on 26,890 arms as the average cost of repairing them, equal to…………………… 20,167 50
Cost of muskets and rifles…………………………………………. $188,589 50

Here's the link to the thread=

http://www.authentic-campaigner.com/forum/archive/index.php/...
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


Edited by Scots Jim on 09-15-12 09:08 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-16-12 12:44 PM - Post#1191231    

    In response to Scots Jim

Anybody here on the Smoothbore Forum have anything to add on researching the "Ohio" markings?Any information?Anything?Maybe you've run across a flint fowler so marked with known Civil war usage?Anybody?Nobody?
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-16-12 01:11 PM - Post#1191235    

    In response to Scots Jim

Maybe some good turkey loads?
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Et2ss 
36 Cal.
Posts: 53
Et2ss
09-16-12 03:56 PM - Post#1191280    

    In response to Scots Jim

I came across a Hapers Ferry 'Ohio' flinter. Don't know much about it though. (Not sure why the 2nd pic is so small so here's a link

Harpers Ferry





 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-16-12 04:13 PM - Post#1191285    

    In response to Et2ss

How long is the barrel?
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
vtbuck223 
40 Cal.
Posts: 265
09-16-12 04:14 PM - Post#1191286    

    In response to Et2ss

Scots Jim....that is a very interesting list...thanks for posting it. The musket pictured above seems to be marked 1815 and looks to fit the appearance of a model 1812. If this is an original flint as it appears and it is marked "Ohio"...then I am assuming that Ohio muskets were thus marked well prior to the Civil War...and the mark has nothing to do with the conversion process? At what point do we begin to see the "Ohio" mark...is it first seen immediately after the act of 1808?

 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-16-12 04:29 PM - Post#1191290    

    In response to vtbuck223

From what I'm finding there is no evidence that state owned firearms were stamped Ohio prior to 1863.Or at least no record of it has been found.There are shown on those lists M1822 muskets,if that musket had been updated to the 1822 standards it could well have been listed as such.It well could have been in the arms mentioned transfered to Ohio in 1863 to arm the state militia.Keep in mind too,some Union and Confederate units started the war carrying flint muskets.It would not be out of the realm of possibility that a state militia at that point would be issued old and out of date firearms if the chances of it seeing Federal service were unlikely.
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Va.Manuf.06 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2401
09-17-12 08:38 AM - Post#1191493    

    In response to Scots Jim

Scots Jim, excellent information, thanks for your work and thanks for sharing it.

 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
09-17-12 09:47 AM - Post#1191529    

    In response to Va.Manuf.06

LOL I found all kinds of odd and interesting info when trying to run down that Wuttembergische Jagerbusche M 1859.
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Ohio Mark 
32 Cal.
Posts: 10
10-03-12 05:40 PM - Post#1197488    

    In response to Scots Jim

Although I am new to this forum I couldn’t resist responding to the original question, “Can someone remind me how these model 1816's made it to Ohio…”. I may be a little late in my response but I thought I would post anyway. First and foremost, most of my information comes from a wonderful resource: U.S. Military Flintlock Muskets And Their Bayonets – The later years, 1816 through The Civil War, by Peter A. Schmidt. Information on Ohio arms can be found in the Ohio Historical Society, Columbus, Ohio.

When war came in 1861. Ohio, like many other states, was in need of arms to equip its soldiers. In April 1861 the state had very few arms in storage which it very surprising considering the fact that the state received thousands of arms during the years leading up to 1860. However, that is another discussion.

On April 23, 1861, John E Wool, Major General, wrote to General Scott informing the general that he had sent 10,000 arms to the Governor of Pennsylvania and that he would send 10,000 to Ohio upon the application of Governor Dennison. On April 30, 1861 Ohio received 10,000 arms from the Watervliet Arsenal (New York). However, only 8,180 were altered muskets. The remaining muskets, 1,820, were listed as New Percussion or what is more commonly known as the M1842.

Other arms were provided to the state but I will stay on topic. Once the state received the arms they were issued in great quantities at Camp Harrison and Camp Dennison in early May 1861. However, both men and officers alike cared little for the Altered Musket thinking it useless and out dated. To remedy the problem the state contracted with Miles Greenwood to rifle thousands of the old smoothbore muskets (both Altered and M1842). The contract also called for a rear sight to be added to at least twenty percent of the muskets.

There is some confusion with this subject due to a couple of articles found in the New York Times dated May and June 1861. One article basically states that Greenwood had contracted to rifle 30,000 muskets for Ohio and is low turning out only 100 but will be able to reach 800 a day. Another article describes an experiment using several arms, one being a rifled musket by Miles Greenwood, “for the purpose of testing the powers of resistance, to the best small arms now in use, of various thicknesses of iron and steel.” The only problem, however, is that the state (according to records) didn’t receive any rifled muskets from Miles Greenwood until August 1, 1861. So the question remains: When did Miles Greenwood actually begin rifling muskets for Ohio? Was it in May or was it July? There are other notes but it would only confuse the reader who is trying to follow the story. However, it is known that Greenwood began rifling (according to records) muskets for the state in July 1861 with the first shipment of rifled muskets arriving in Columbus from Cincinnati on August 1, 1861. This is where the Altered Musket comes into play.

Watervliet Arsenal received 83,714 flintlock muskets from various contractors (the M1816, M1822, and the M1822/28 or what is more commonly known as the Type I, II, and III). At least 15,000 were from P.&E. W. Blake expanding from 1826 to 1830:
1826 – 2,000
1827 – 3,500
1828 – 3,500
1829 – 3,000
1830 - 3,000
During the years of 1849, 1850, and 1851 Watervliet Arsenal altered 67,895 flintlock muskets. An educated guess would mean that the remaining 15,819 muskets had already been issued or left in their original state. This is where the Ohio Mark may help with research. Thus far, I have only seen the Ohio Mark on P.&E. W. Blake muskets with the years of 1827, 1829, and 1830. At this point it’s another educated guess, but it’s likely that Ohio received a quantity of muskets made in 1827, 1829, and 1830. This information is probable but not conclusive.

When Miles Greenwood began to rifle muskets for Ohio those muskets made by P.&E. W. Blake would have been included. Depending on which account you read the number of arms rifled various slightly from each independent sourceLikewise, the amount of grooves in the barrel is also at question. Some sources say that Miles Greenwood had rifling with four broad grooves while others mention three broad grooves. One thing is certain, however, both the Altered musket and the M1842 were considered a rifled musket once rifling was added. Annotations in the log do not distinguish between the two muskets and therefore, it is hard to determine which musket was actually issued to any particular regiment. I’m assuming period photos may help with identification. Note: Most but not all smoothbore muskets were rifled and some are found today with no rifling.

The following is a list of those regiments that were issued the Rifled Musket or what was known as the Greenwood Musket:
1st – November 1, 1861: 740
2nd – September 18, 1861: 800 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets 1st Class
6th – August 24, 1861: 752
- 69 cal. Rifled Muskets Bright (700)
- 69 cal. Rifled Muskets Browned (100)
- 48 Browned muskets were returned
8th – September 12, 1861: 576
11th – January 20, 1862: 98
12th – August 14, 1861: 12
13th – August 9, 1861: 800 – 2nd Class 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
14th – September 20, 1861: 1,000
15th – October 1, 1861: 690 – 2nd Class Rifled Muskets Greenwood
October 16, 1861: 40
17th – September 24, 1861: 784 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets – Browned Muskets
18th – November 5, 1861: 720
20th – October 29, 1861: 550 – Greenwood Rifles
January 8, 1862: 250
February 11, 1862: 53
21st – September 20, 1861: 800 2nd Class Muskets
26th – July 31, 1861: 800 – 2nd Class Rifled Muskets
30th – August 28, 1861: 800 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
31st – September 13, 1861: 375 69 cal. Rifled Muskets 2nd Class
September 30, 1861: 5
32nd – September 10, 1861: 800 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
33rd – August 21, 1861: 500 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
October 10, 1861: 200
34th – September 10, 1861: 800 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
35th – September 17, 1861: 420 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
September 19, 1861: 800
37th – October 1, 1861: 385 – 2nd Class Rifled Muskets Greenwood
– 120 of 385 were Browned Muskets
November 11, 1861: 100
38th – September 26, 1861: 750 – 69 cal. 1st Class Rifled Muskets
39th – August 14, 1861: 800 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
41st – November 8, 1861: 680
44th – October 10, 1861: 780
45th – Date unknown: received – unknown, see Rifled Muskets returned below.
47th – August 27, 1861: 800 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
49th – September 18, 1861: 700 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets 1st Class
51st – November 6, 1861: 703
52nd – September 30, 1861: 220 – 69 cal. Rifled Muskets
See as: Col. A. E. Jones – September 30, 1861: 220
55th – Date unknown: 182 – Rifled Muskets

The following is a list of regiments that returned the rifled musket:
12th – January 3, 1862: 528 Altered Muskets .69 cal returned as unserviceable
170 Enfield Muskets .58 cal returned as unserviceable
55th – January 7, 1862: 150 New Percussion .69 cal
270 Altered Muskets .69 cal
182 Rifled Muskets .69 cal
45th – January 15, 1862: 100 Altered Muskets .69 cal
44th – January 31, 1862: 682 Rifled Muskets .69 cal
20th – February 8, 1862: 102 Rifled Muskets .69 cal
52nd – April 30, 1862: 220 Rifled Muskets .69 cal
112 Rifled Muskets .58 cal

Special Note: The State of Ohio did not report having any flintlock muskets in its inventory by April 15, 1861. On August 21, 1861 the State of Ohio received 80 muskets which were captured in western Virginia. On November 4, 1861 two regiments were issued flintlock muskets. The 69th Regiment was issued 80 flintlock muskets that had been captured in western Virginia. The 74th Regiment was issued 200 flintlocks on November 4, 1861 as well. There is no other information regarding flintlocks used by Ohio regiments.


 
vtbuck223 
40 Cal.
Posts: 265
10-03-12 09:45 PM - Post#1197562    

    In response to Ohio Mark

Ohio Mark....great first post! Very informative...Thanks

 
wahkahchim 
45 Cal.
Posts: 579
10-03-12 10:16 PM - Post#1197580    

    In response to vtbuck223

To me this implies that somewhere out there are 1816 muskets altered to percussion with .69 caliber rifled barrels and rear sights. Is this a valid perception? If so, wow!

 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
10-03-12 10:58 PM - Post#1197586    

    In response to wahkahchim

There are some out there,Gunderson's Militaria did have one for sale awhile back-

http://www.gundersonmilitaria.com/musketspringfieldm1816rifl...

Here's another Ohio marked conversion musket-

http://www.collegehillarsenal.com/shop/product.php?productid...
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
10-03-12 10:59 PM - Post#1197588    

    In response to Ohio Mark

Great post Ohio Mark.

Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
10-03-12 11:32 PM - Post#1197593    

    In response to wahkahchim

  • wahkahchim Said:
To me this implies that somewhere out there are 1816 muskets altered to percussion with .69 caliber rifled barrels and rear sights. Is this a valid perception? If so, wow!




Records show that Frankford Arsenal so converted an estimated 20,000 to Maynard tape primer with locks and breeches being supplied by Remington with the arsenal fitting them and rifling the barrels along with installing long range leaf sights.The locks usually bear dates 1856-58.Many of them ended up with New York and New Jersey state units.New Jersey marked N.J. are known.The 6th U.S.Infantry,Fort Riley,Kansas received some in 1857 whether as trials weapons or regular issue I'm not sure.

Conversions using the bolster type conversion of flint to percussion and rifling of the barrels was carried out by Hewes & Philips of New Jersey for the state of New Jersey and the Federal government circa 1861-63,estimated at around 20,000 altered.

Many of those converted rifled muskets were later sold as surplus and smoothbored by the sellers and sold as shotguns.That is one reason for there scarcity on the collectors market.I have one done
that way with the Maynard lock.The stock has been cut down as well as the barrel.I picked it up cheaply solely for the lock.
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
wahkahchim 
45 Cal.
Posts: 579
10-04-12 02:54 PM - Post#1197746    

    In response to Scots Jim

Scots Jim that is amazing and mind-boggling! If only those guns could talk!

 
Ohio Mark 
32 Cal.
Posts: 10
10-04-12 09:53 PM - Post#1197905    

    In response to wahkahchim

The Ohio Mark

Leading Up To 1861

According to the Executive Documents, for the year 1859, dated November 15, 1859, there were 2,657 muskets and 763 rifles in the hands of the militia from various counties for which the state had no bonds. Accordingly, there were 539 muskets and 125 rifles in the hands of the militia who had given bond “as required by law”. Although this little clip of information is just the tip of the iceberg the underlying truth is that Ohio was plagued with many issues: the militia; the militia laws; the distribution of and the storage/safe keeping of public arms. Although not conclusive these issues may help an individual understand why the state chose to mark its arms. The point of when and why remains unknown but evidence thus far points to the years of either 1863 or 1864.

Due to the amount of information and the available space permitted it is impossible to cover a wide range of material needed for this topic. Therefore I will try to provide as much information when necessary.

The story of the Ohio Mark, if you will permit me to call it that, has a vague beginning and no end. After researching this topic for a number of years I haven’t come across any defining/definite proof regarding the Ohio Mark and its use. Hearsay has the mark being used prior to the Civil War while others imply that the state used it in 1861 only to drop its use due to the amount or time and effort needed. Others point to the fact that the arms found with the Ohio Mark were issued to the state in 1861 by the United States. From here I will only report what I have found thus far and will leave it up to the reader to decide in the end.

To begin we should start from the very beginning. There are numerous reports, especially those found in the Executive Documents, where the Quarter Master and the Adjutant General were frustrated with the system. Here are a few examples:

For the Year 1825
In 1825 the Quartermaster General reported that he had 6,473 arms on hand. This total amounted to total number of arms received in 1819 (1,200) and 1823 (5,273). It was also stated that a large portion of arms remained at each original places of deposit. It was also reported that nearly one half of the arms had been drawn out for upwards of a year. The arms were distributed evenly to Painesville, Steubenville, Portsmouth, Cincinnati, and Columbus. The Quartermaster stated that due to the defect in the current law he was uncertain how many arms had been drawn by the captains of companies through the state. However, the state did have an idea of how many arms it had but it didn’t mention the 3,155 arms received prior to 1816.

For the Year 1840: February 24, 1840
From the early beginnings to about the 1820s the State of Ohio was divided into 10 Divisions that consisted of Infantry, cavalry, and artillery. Sometime around 1826 or possibly 1833, that number increased to 17 Divisions. In 1837 the Divisions were sub-divided and extended to 23 Divisions. The number of arms provided to the militia depended on the population of the state.
It is also interesting to note that most of the arms were kept in the old state prison which the Quartermaster was using as an arsenal. The Quartermaster went on to report that he hoped the legislature would provide further means to repair the old prison and enclose the surrounding grounds. Because the arms could not be controlled for safe-keeping and want of repairs the Quartermaster General, Niswanger, sought to have all arms drawn from the state arsenal at Columbus at the militias’ own expense and have bond for double the amount of contract price for safe keeping and redelivery of said arms in good condition. Prior to this time, the evidence suggests the arms were distributed to each division who in turn distributed them to each brigade. The brigade quartermaster than distributed the arms to the companies. It was said that some arms were kept in storage at different points throughout the state. The state would then pay individuals for either storage of or repair and cleaning of arms when necessary which turned out to be a great expense to the state.

For the Year 1846
The Adjutant General reported the there seemed no permanency in the present militia organization. In some parts of the State quite an interest is felt - in others, comparatively, nothing. If the citizens take some care in upholding and fostering the militia that is taken in destroying it, we would now be doing well. More than a third of the militia has no arms and nearly all the accoutrements to the arms entirely lost, namely bayonets and scabbards, cartridge boxes, and the like.
On December 31, 1845 the Adjutant General reported that there was at least 147,300 Infantry or unarmed militia. The Light Infantry was reported to be 6,506 with 6,851 muskets in use and 15,417 distributed. Riflemen reported a strength of 15,438 with 4,040 rifles in use and 7,002 rifles distributed. A combined strength of all departments was 176,147 which was less than reported in 1841 which was 180,000. Inclosing, the Adjutant General hoped the Legislature would refurnish the equipment lost which would encourage the promotion of the volunteer corps, and secure the enumeration, fully, of the unarmed militia, it is hoped a much larger force will be reported next years.

For the Year 1849: November 15, 1849
The Quartermaster in 1849 reported that the books in the office contained no record of the distribution of the arms prior to the year 1843. It didn’t give any account of the arms received from the United States and that the public arms were scattered all over the country and going fast to destruction. An inventory of arms and equipment held in Columbus was taken and found that a great portion of arms in the worst possible condition.

For the Year 1850: November 22, 1850
In 1850 it was written that nearly 1,400 arms were lying in the Arsenal in need of immediate attention. The Quartermaster wrote that it is impossible to make any very correct estimate of the number of public arms, now distributed through the State, or suggestion as to their condition. This statement should have been alarming at the time and gives evidence that the state, by this time had no idea what had been distributed.
The Quartermaster reported that that there was at least 1,000 to 1,500 stands of arms issued to each division and that more than half of this number (at least 14,375 arms) were lying in Court Houses, Warehouses, and barns, fast disappearing and going to loss by rust and private use. The Quartermaster went on to report that there were 2,200 muskets in good order, the majority being Harpers Ferry and Springfield muskets in the state arsenal.

For the Year 1851: December 16, 1851
The Quartermaster wrote that a large number of muskets and rifles, now in the Arsenal, are in bad condition, having been heretofore distributed to divisions and since returned in bad order. Rifles were lying in boxes in such a poor place that had never been open required to have them opened for cleaning and repacked. He went on to say that the arms could not be taken care of unless money was appropriated for their care and that he would have to lock up the arsenal and let them rust and rot without the necessary funding.
The Quartermaster was showing signs of frustration at this time not only for the number of arms needing repair but that the militia’s strength, which was used to receive arms for the general government, had not made proper returns for some years which denied the state more arms than what it was receiving and that the state could have received a much larger proportion of the public arms.
His frustration ran even deeper when he couldn’t give reliable information on the distribution of arms to the several divisions of the state. By acts passed by the state legislature beginning in 1837 and then again in 1844 the public arms were received from the Ordnance Department, and scattered through the state, with no law requiring any officer to report in regard to their condition or safety. By the act of March 12, 1844, vol. 42, O. L., the training of the militia was dispensed with, and provisions made for volunteer companies. After this passage of that law, the military spirit in this state dwindled to almost nothing. General confusion and disorder in the military organization prevailed. All military spirit was lost, and companies broke up and threw aside their arms without protection. During the confused state of things, no returns have been made of the strength of the militia for the last five or six years.
The Quartermaster went on by explaining that he couldn’t make a very correct estimate of arms unprotected by agents. But he believed that nearly $500,000 worth of public property was lying in barns, warehouses fast going to destruction, and still a matter of considerable expense to the state and that no bonds have been taken for its safe keeping and redelivery. From here it’s quite clear that the Quartermaster General, Andrews, vents his frustration as to why the state is allowing this problem to persist without taking the proper measures to defend the country or the state when needed.
When speaking of the militia Andrews quoted the new constitution that all white male citizens, resident of the State, being eighteen years of age, and under the age of forty years, shall be enrolled in the militia, and perform military duty, in such a manner, not incompatible with the Constitution and laws of the United States, as may be prescribed by law. However, he went on to explain that it is thought by some individuals of influence and position, that a military organization in this state is expensive, useless, and unnecessary; and that it would be better if the public arms were thrown into the Scioto, and the taxes of the people saved from such expense. Disagreeing, he continued by saying it would be an act of pride and self preservation, to organize the militia upon such a basis aw would either call into active duty the whole body of the militia, or build up a system of independent companies that would be an honor to the state.

Annual Report for the Year 1856: January 26, 1856
In January 1856 Quartermaster General Andrews reported the kinds and arms in the State Arsenal were nearly all in good order. He also reported that there were no records of arms distribution prior to the year 1843. This seems to have been a recurring problem with each new Quartermaster General. Having no documentation of arms received by the state since 1808 Andrews applied to the Ordnance Department for a copy of the account with the State, which was furnished, and the same has been entered in a suitable book in this office.
It’s also notable to mention at this point that the state seemed, for several years since, to have rotated its arms with the several divisions ensuring that the newer arms were replacing the older ones from time to time. It also seems that the state had tried to rein in the unused arms discussed previously. But, Andrews does mention that he still had no idea what had been issued prior to the year 1843. This will be a problem that will persist for a few more years until Quartermaster Wood attempts to solve the issue once and for all. However, it won’t be until 1863 until the state finally solves it issues when the state takes complete control of its arms and equipment.

More to follow… Ran out of time. I'm not sure if anyone has an interest on this topic. If there is an interest I will respond with more information if not I will stop here. Having trouble sleeping? Read some more.




 
wahkahchim 
45 Cal.
Posts: 579
10-04-12 10:26 PM - Post#1197915    

    In response to Ohio Mark

I'm interested. We who are relatively uneducated think that the whole Civil War was fought with 1861 Springfield Rifle-muskets. Actually you are showing us that there was a continuum of firearms use and development and that there were even...FLINTLOCKS...in the early days of the war. I had no idea that .69 caliber guns were so widespread and that they even put rifled barrels on 1816's. Now THOSE guns would have a lot to say if they could talk! Did any of these .69 caliber guns in any capacity last all the way through the war? And what happened to them AFTER the civil war.

 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
10-04-12 10:36 PM - Post#1197919    

    In response to Ohio Mark

I find it very interesting myself.I've studied what arms were used to arm Illinois troops and Fremont's arms purchases off and on for years.Fascinating stuff.Some units carried smoothbores of one sort or another till the end of the war.A lot of Illinois troops carried Austrian smoothbores pretty much up till the end.The number of imported and converted muskets carried during the war is amazing.The Springfield Rifled Musket and the Enfield were in the majority for sure,especially for Federal troops,state units are a whole different story.
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
Scots Jim 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
10-04-12 10:59 PM - Post#1197926    

    In response to wahkahchim

  • wahkahchim Said:
I had no idea that .69 caliber guns were so widespread and that they even put rifled barrels on 1816's. Now THOSE guns would have a lot to say if they could talk! Did any of these .69 caliber guns in any capacity last all the way through the war? And what happened to them AFTER the civil war.



They didn't put rifled barrels on them,they rifled the existing smoothbore barrels.On the ones I have had a chance to look at the rifling is very shallow.

Many units in the Western Theatre were armed with various smoothbore muskets till late in the war,some till the end.Being more familiar with Illinois units,many of the Quarterly Ordnance Stores Reports still listed U.S.RM M1816 altered to percussion into late 1863 and the 1st half of 1864 before dropping off the QOSR.

As to what happened to them post war,they were sold as surplus by the thousands and remained on the market for years.Many of them smooth bored and sold as cheap shotguns.Hartley & Grahams circa 1885 catalog lists such guns-

Musket M1822 Cone in barrel Smooth Bore Bright and Well Cleaned @ $1.60

Springfield Model 1842 altered to shotgun @ $2.20

This one is interesting-

Model 1822 Patent Breech SmoothBore @$1.67

The one conversion using a patent breech were the ones converted to Maynard Tape Primer and Rifled.

Not everyone going west had a Winchester Rifle and a Colt's Revolver.For a homesteader they weren't a bad choice.A ball and shot gun,round ball for larger game and defense,shot for small game and birds.And they didn't cost much.
Don’t fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here.
Capt. John Parker April 19,1775


 
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