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Origin of matchlock pan design?

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Reference this picture of the EXCELLENT repro English fishtail matchlock as just scratch-buillt by von Yeast ... and ponder this question for me if you will.

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What is the origin of the pan design? By that I mean the round scooped bowl, which I understand, but leading to that narrow channel that further leads to the touchhole.

Doesn't this place the priming charge well away from the main charge? Unlike a flint pan where the priming charge is immediately adjacent to the barrel ...
 
My flintlocks get primed with an amount of 4f that would barely cover the bottom of this pan. A good touch hole will allow the blast of the prime being ignited will find its wway in there!
 
Thanks ... as FINALLY someone chimed in to help this discussion. I'm well aware of flintlock priming, I'm just more curious why the pan depression seems to be so removed from the barrel on most matchlocks I've seen.

"Maybe" the intent of the circular depression is to give the match a round 'landing or strike zone' if you will, where then the flash takes the path of leadt resistance out of the pan, i.e., via that little channel leading to the touch hole.

Thinking that if the pan was immediately adjacent to the touch hole, there could be the possibility that the match could obscure it. Any thoughts? I'm just one who sees somethin and has to ask WHY ... ?????
 
Thinking that if the pan was immediately adjacent to the touch hole, there could be the possibility that the match could obscure it.

Hey Flint62Smoothie,

Let me preface this by saying I have zero experience with matchlocks, but I think you nailed it with your above comments about the possibility of the match obscuring the hole. If the pan has no perimeter to it and just leads to the flash hole, like on a flintlock, that typically leaves the flash hole positioned above the pan and easily blocked by the match/wick. Let's imagine that you are carrying the gun and the prime in the pan drifts away from the lock. When ignited the match could block the flash from hitting the hole. With the bowl shape on the matchlock pan, there is strong probability that there is prime surrounding the match when it dips into the pan and even if the match comes down off center closer to the touch hole the furrow in the bowl would direct some spark into the flash hole. Just a hunch.
 
Interesting question. Just to add some additional confusion, here is a pic of my Japanese matchlock barrel I shoot. Note in the pan design that the vent hole goes throug the barrel at a lower, almost 45 degree angle. You would think this would cause a longer than necessary delay, but it does not. The pan and barrel powder is connected together for the most part. Rick.

japmatchlock002.jpg
 
A few years back I had the opportunity to study handgonnes and matchlocks at the Kremlin in Russia. I noted that the matchlock pans were dimensionally almost identical to the pans of the earlier handgonnes. They had simply been moved from the top of the barrel to the side. I don't know why but that's what I noticed: The round pans were very similar to the rounded indentations on top of the handgonne barrels.
 
Smoothie what you say makes sense! I could see the match blocking the "jet blast" from the prime ignition.
 
ricky said:
Interesting question. Just to add some additional confusion, here is a pic of my Japanese matchlock barrel I shoot. Note in the pan design that the vent hole goes throug the barrel at a lower, almost 45 degree angle. You would think this would cause a longer than necessary delay, but it does not. The pan and barrel powder is connected together for the most part. Rick.

Quite interesting. It does seem counterintuitive since it handily creates the dreaded powder "fuse" that, according to some, is a good recipe for slow ignition. But if it works it works. I'd say the Japanese knew a thing or two about matchlocks as well, given their longtime use of them. :bow:
 
I do not know why the pans were made that way. Perhaps it was simple evolution that resulted in the pan/patent breech/touchole liner sytem of the late flintlock guns. Quest for fast ignition, as opposed to simple positive ignition.
FWIW,I have made flashpans like the by forging the basin. Heat the blank, drive the ball end of a ball pein hammer into the blank.
 
I built both of my Matchlocks with the sort of pan on that Japanese Matchlock, though the passage leading to the touch hole is pointed directly at the barrel rather than at an angle.
Both guns have a delay of around 30-40 milliseconds upon ignition, imperceptible when you're shooting really, as soon as the match touches the pan it just goes off.
 
Older post, but ... FWIW after more & more matchlock shooting and still being astounded as to just how FAST the ignition system is ... and I now believe that the 'trough' from the priming bowl that leads to the barrel has some positive and efficient effect akin the venturi effect where pressure and temperature increase as a force is put through a constriction or narrowing area.

The bowls on my 3 matchlocks, one original from 1600s, are well away from the touchhole, much more so than in a comparable flintlock, and yet the matchlocks are significantly faster in ignition.
 
It would seem that the narrow travel path from the pan to the barrel was designed, originally with the "fuse" effect in mind. That may have been the thinking back in the day (?). But as Flint mentions, the "venturi" effect may have been something that they were aware of earlier that we think (?) Hmmm.
What is also interesting is that matchlocks from Europe, Eastern, or Fer East, all have round pans. What is curious is that the Eastern guns have such small pans. Not sure why this is ?
The small, round pan on this Indian Torador and vent hole buts right up to the barrel wall like a flintlock. Since this gun was likely made in the first/second quarter of the 19th Century, maybe the "fuse" idea was discarded by then ?

Rick.
 
One big difference is that the matchlock foresight and pan are dovetailed in to the barrel

The touch hole is at the bottom of the dovetail. You can't let the whole pan in to the barrel.

If any gas starts to blow sideways under the dovetail, then sooner or later it will rip the pan off.

It's a tricky thing to design :thumbsup:

matchinlet.jpg
 
Ressurrecting this old post as we have a lot of new 'matchlock and early arms' afficinados on here as of late ...

Am curious if other matchlock shooters would comment on the venturi effect, re: the pan design as posted in the 1st picture back up at the top. Anytime I shoot my matchlocks, myself and any/all obervers, are amazed as how just FAST the ignition is ... as in ... INSTANT!

Fire direct to powder
, I swear they are faster than percussion BP arms in ignition. What say you?
 
Ressurrecting this old post as we have a lot of new 'matchlock and early arms' afficinados on here as of late ...

Am curious if other matchlock shooters would comment on the venturi effect, re: the pan design as posted in the 1st picture back up at the top. Anytime I shoot my matchlocks, myself and any/all obervers, are amazed as how just FAST the ignition is ... as in ... INSTANT!

Fire direct to powder
, I swear they are faster than percussion BP arms in ignition. What say you?
I found that it was fast... when you know what you are doing. When someone (me) does not and just slowly lowers it down at the wrong angle or match length, hang fire galore. However, it looks like you just provided some great solutions to that in the slowmatch thread.
 
Flint,
I don't know about a venturi effect, as this requires a clear hole out the other end, not stopped up with powder! :)
But, I think you are on the right track!
On the snaplock I made, the pan is Round, Deep and has a notch at the touchhole.....almost Exactly like you show!
I too have pondered the lightning fast ignition;
What I came up with, and nothing to back it up, is that with the pan being quite deep and round, and sparks flying away from the touchhole may well bounce off the opposite side of the pan and be directed straight into the main charge. If this happens in every direction, all sparks heading back to the centre of the pan, we May get a concentrated fire going right where we need it!
This is just an idea, but you are right, there is nothing much faster than a well put together matchlock!
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