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Login Name Post: Flintlock - Miroku Japan        (Topic#267836)
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-28-12 07:38 AM - Post#1127746    


Hey, any of you skinners ever dealt with one of these? This is the lock from my neighbor's .45 Flintlock imported by Ultra-Hi and made by Miroku Japan. It's a clone of the old CVA Kentucky with the two-piece stock. We are trying to get a reliable spark out of this lock and having some trouble. I have polished the toe of the cam and top of the frizzen spring as well as the pivot screw and the holes it rides in butter smooth using India and hard Arkansas stones along with 320 paper. Disassembled the lock and did the same with all the bearing surfaces and she works pretty slick now but still not getting a good spark. This lock takes a very small (short) flint, and the one shown in the picture is in the jaws just for the picture because it's a ceramic flint that was sent to me to try by a man that manufactured them and it never worked well on any lock I've tried it on. Neither one of us had any flints of the proper size as our rifles use 3/4" flints. I managed to get a fair spark with an old flint that was worn down bad and I knapped enough of an edge to make it work somewhat, but not reliably. I'm not so sure that the frizzen is soft because the flint(s) don't seem to be gouging it, as a matter of fact, they don't seem to scrape it hardly at all. I was thinking about having it rockwell tested before we try anything like re-soling or Kasenite. The frizzen opens smoothly so, could it be that the mainspring is too weak? If so, where could we find a replacement? He is willing to spend a few dollars on it because it was given to him but not go overboard (he isn't trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear). Here are some pics of the lock and frizzen. Thanks in advance for any/all input.
BPS








 
Ghettogun 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2950
03-28-12 08:08 AM - Post#1127752    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

A quick check of the frizzen hardness is to run a file accross the face of it. If it skims accross without scratching it, it is probably hard enough. If it easily scratches it, it needs hardening. It kinda sounds like you need to find a good flint that fits it, and try that before you go much further.

 
Fred_D 
40 Cal.
Posts: 245
Fred_D
03-28-12 08:26 AM - Post#1127754    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

Look at the angle where the "flint" meets the frizzen at the underside, that is not a scraping kind of angle, it's more like a burnishing angle.
How's that going to shave off any sparky material?
Try putting that bevel up. Shim it out a bit with leather b'twixt it and the screw so the screw clears the frizzen. It will strike a little low on the frizzen but this will tell you about hardness and spark-ability.


 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-28-12 10:46 AM - Post#1127816    

    In response to Ghettogun

  • Ghettogun Said:
A quick check of the frizzen hardness is to run a file accross the face of it. If it skims across without scratching it, it is probably hard enough. If it easily scratches it, it needs hardening. It kinda sounds like you need to find a good flint that fits it, and try that before you go much further.



I tried that test with a brand new mill smooth file and although I could scratch it, it took a good bit of pressure to do so. I'm thinking about having it Rockwell tested. Thanks,

BPS


 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-28-12 11:16 AM - Post#1127824    

    In response to Fred_D

  • Fred_D Said:
Look at the angle where the "flint" meets the frizzen at the underside, that is not a scraping kind of angle, it's more like a burnishing angle.
How's that going to shave off any sparky material?
Try putting that bevel up. Shim it out a bit with leather b'twixt it and the screw so the screw clears the frizzen. It will strike a little low on the frizzen but this will tell you about hardness and spark-ability.




As far as the bevel, turning the bevel over on that flint caused it to contact the frizzen almost flat, as if putting your hand out flat with your fingers folded downward and placing them against a wall. And, as I had stated earlier, that flint won't spark well in any lock I tried it in, it was only there for the picture. We will try a smaller flint when we get some. I did notice that the frizzen face is somewhat concave, although I'm not sure that it's enough to be a problem. Flints tend to wear into shape within a few tries anyway. Could it be possible that the hammer needs to be heated and bent back slightly so that with the bevel down on any flint the screw won't contact the frizzen? How about grinding off a portion of the top of the frizzen instead so that the screw doesn't contact it? I know I'm probably grabbing at straws here.

BPS


 
Mike Brooks 
Cannon
Posts: 6686
03-28-12 12:18 PM - Post#1127851    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

What's a "skinner"?

 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-28-12 03:35 PM - Post#1127955    

    In response to Mike Brooks

  • Mike Brooks Said:
What's a "skinner"?



A "Buckskinner"...taken from the buckskin clothing worn by the Indians, Mountain men, Frontiersman, Trapper/traders, etc. etc.

BPS


 
Dan Phariss 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4622
Dan Phariss
03-28-12 06:36 PM - Post#1128065    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

These things are not safe to shoot IMO.
The half octagonal models I know of have a two piece barrel that is screwed together. The round portion screws into the octagonal breech section and the bores often do not align very well.
The word "junk" comes to mind.
Funny part is they were made by Miroku IIRC. Who really should know better.
Dan

 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-28-12 10:15 PM - Post#1128152    

    In response to Dan Phariss

  • Dan Phariss Said:
These things are not safe to shoot IMO.
The half octagonal models I know of have a two piece barrel that is screwed together. The round portion screws into the octagonal breech section and the bores often do not align very well.
The word "junk" comes to mind.
Funny part is they were made by Miroku IIRC. Who really should know better.
Dan




Dan,

If you had read my first post a little closer, you would have seen that I stated that it was a two-piece STOCK, not a two piece barrel. It has a 33" octagon one piece barrel and it does shoot, it just doesn't get good spark.

BPS

Edited by Blackpowdersmoke on 03-28-12 10:20 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
54ball 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2513
54ball
03-28-12 11:30 PM - Post#1128167    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

  • Quote:
, they don't seem to scrape it hardly at all.



It's very possible it could be too hard.
Try a correct sized flint first.

 
Fred_D 
40 Cal.
Posts: 245
Fred_D
03-29-12 09:19 AM - Post#1128260    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

  • Quote:
Could it be possible that the hammer needs to be heated and bent back slightly so that with the bevel down on any flint the screw won't contact the frizzen?



It probably won't help. Did the instructions with the gun specify "bevel down"?

 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-29-12 12:11 PM - Post#1128340    

    In response to Fred_D

  • Fred_D Said:
  • Quote:
Could it be possible that the hammer needs to be heated and bent back slightly so that with the bevel down on any flint the screw won't contact the frizzen?



It probably won't help. Did the instructions with the gun specify "bevel down"?



Fred,
My neighbor didn't get any instructions with the gun. It was given to him (used) by his brother, who acquired it God knows where. As I had said, it's a clone of the older CVA/Jukar Kentucky. We would like to get this rifle shooting, mainly to see what kind of accuracy that barrel is capable of. Near as I can figure doing a "spin test" with a tight fitting jag, it's a 1:48 - 1:50 twist and it does have relatively deep rifling.

BPS


 
gizamo 
45 Cal.
Posts: 932
03-30-12 03:41 AM - Post#1128579    

    In response to Dan Phariss

  • Dan Phariss Said:
These things are not safe to shoot IMO.
The half octagonal models I know of have a two piece barrel that is screwed together. The round portion screws into the octagonal breech section and the bores often do not align very well.
The word "junk" comes to mind.
Funny part is they were made by Miroku IIRC. Who really should know better.
Dan



Dan,

That is a pretty damaging statement...can you back it up?

What is the source of this info? Are you positive .... Miroku made a two part barrel that screwed together?



 
capt_turk 
40 Cal.
Posts: 263
capt_turk
03-30-12 08:19 AM - Post#1128618    

    In response to gizamo

I have one with the two piece barrel musckets. It's about a .68 smooth bore. The frizzen on it is too soft and doesn't spark worth a damn. I picked it up in a pawn shop several years ago for cheap figuring it to be a wall hanger.

I've run across several people that said they had the same gun, and that with some work, they were good shooters.

I've been planning on shoeing the frizzen and do the ole strap to a tire and some string to the trigger trick before I try to actually shoot it.

From what I've been told, they were made and imported back in the 70's for the re-enacting craze that was going on for the 76 bi-centennial.


 
capt_turk 
40 Cal.
Posts: 263
capt_turk
03-30-12 08:55 AM - Post#1128643    

    In response to capt_turk

Blasted dialup is so slow it timed out on me before I could link to the pictures.





 
gizamo 
45 Cal.
Posts: 932
03-30-12 10:50 AM - Post#1128682    

    In response to capt_turk

Was that made by Miruko???

 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-30-12 11:56 AM - Post#1128697    

    In response to gizamo

Gizamo,

The one I started the thread about doesn't look anything like the one in capt turk's pics. It's a .45 and it looks like the earlier CVA Kentucky with the exception that it does have a "faux" patchbox and where the two piece stock joins together, there is a brass strap covering the joint instead of a brass plate. It has a 33" one piece octagon barrel is marked "Ultra-Hi" and "Miroku Japan" on the barrel.



 
Va.Manuf.06 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2399
03-30-12 12:05 PM - Post#1128703    

    In response to capt_turk

  • capt_turk Said:
I have one with the two piece barrel musckets. It's about a .68 smooth bore. The frizzen on it is too soft and doesn't spark worth a damn. I picked it up in a pawn shop several years ago for cheap figuring it to be a wall hanger.

I've run across several people that said they had the same gun, and that with some work, they were good shooters.

I've been planning on shoeing the frizzen and do the ole strap to a tire and some string to the trigger trick before I try to actually shoot it.

From what I've been told, they were made and imported back in the 70's for the re-enacting craze that was going on for the 76 bi-centennial.





Capt, the ones like you show and are reffering to were and are pure junk. Some even had the barrel's round section and the octagon section reversed. I guess it depended on whether you wanted a "rifle" or a "muscket".

Take my advice, don't shoot it on a bet. Why would you want to treat a worn out tire so badly?

(And it's true, I wouldn't be this negative about an Indian-made "imitation gun".)

BPSmoke, your example is fine.

Edited by Va.Manuf.06 on 03-30-12 12:12 PM. Reason for edit: in praise of Indian-made muskets

 
capt_turk 
40 Cal.
Posts: 263
capt_turk
03-30-12 12:21 PM - Post#1128710    

    In response to gizamo

Yup, It's a Miroku.



 
gizamo 
45 Cal.
Posts: 932
03-30-12 02:40 PM - Post#1128770    

    In response to capt_turk

Well, if that is a Miroku....

Dan nailed it. And I owe him a apology.....



 
Fred_D 
40 Cal.
Posts: 245
Fred_D
03-30-12 04:12 PM - Post#1128804    

    In response to gizamo

Some do some don't and that isn't the gun we were talking about anyway.
screwed barrels

 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
03-30-12 10:21 PM - Post#1128898    

    In response to Fred_D

  • Fred_D Said:
Some do some don't and that isn't the gun we were talking about anyway. screwed barrels



Thanks Fred,

BPS


 
Fred_D 
40 Cal.
Posts: 245
Fred_D
03-30-12 11:34 PM - Post#1128917    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

Back to bending the cock. You need to more like stretch it rather than just bend it. Just bending it back will mess up the 60 degrees that it should have where the flint meets the frizzen. It will spark even less and eat up flints since they'll be smashing into the frizzen closer to 90 degrees.
So really to keep the geometry correct and gain the height; you want to change the shorter "s" into a taller "S", while moving the jaws rearward slightly to maintain distance from the frizzen.

Wait till you get a real flint, hopefully it will the perfect size/length then assess the spark and geometry. Then ponder the bending/stretching.

 
Blackpowdersmoke 
40 Cal.
Posts: 149
Blackpowdersmoke
04-01-12 04:26 AM - Post#1129256    

    In response to Fred_D

  • Fred_D Said:
Back to bending the cock. You need to more like stretch it rather than just bend it. Just bending it back will mess up the 60 degrees that it should have where the flint meets the frizzen. It will spark even less and eat up flints since they'll be smashing into the frizzen closer to 90 degrees.
So really to keep the geometry correct and gain the height; you want to change the shorter "s" into a taller "S", while moving the jaws rearward slightly to maintain distance from the frizzen.

Wait till you get a real flint, hopefully it will the perfect size/length then assess the spark and geometry. Then ponder the bending/stretching.




Fred,

I believe that's what we're going to do. I have taken a closer look and it appears as though the flint is striking the frizzen OK, but it's becoming more apparent that the frizzen is actually too soft. We came up with a good flint of an appropriate size and it sparks well just a few times and then the flint "loads up" with the softer steel. Do a quick knap, and the same thing happens. I am going to have the frizzen RC tested and then re-hardened. May look into having more spring tension put on the mainspring if the frizzen hardening doesn't help, but I believe the problem is with the frizzen. Thanks for your help,

BPS


 
Dean2 
45 Cal.
Posts: 710
04-02-12 03:40 AM - Post#1129624    

    In response to Blackpowdersmoke

One thing that I have been told by a couple of old time competitive flintlock shooters, that helps prevent the flint from loading up quite so much is to use lead instead of leather to hold the flint. May want to give that a try till you get the frizzen tested. I am going to try it on mine to see if I can tell any difference.

 
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