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Login Name Post: CVA Mt. Rifle Question....        (Topic#266123)
Lead Slinger 
40 Cal.
Posts: 436
02-05-12 09:45 PM - Post#1106345    


Opinions wanted. Would it be feasible or possible to change a CVA Mountain Rifle from Percussion to Flintlock???? Or, should I just let it as is??

 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 12279
necchi
02-05-12 11:14 PM - Post#1106364    

    In response to Lead Slinger

I'd let it be considering they are an out of production gun and beginning to get scarce.

It's possible, different lock, then pull just the drum and replace it with a full sized metric bolt of the proper size then drill a flash hole in the cut off bolt. Slot the cut bolt face of course.

Only trouble I can think of would be getting the lock panel up against the barrel flat proper.
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
LHunter 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1389
LHunter
02-05-12 11:18 PM - Post#1106369    

    In response to Lead Slinger

You can it depends on your plans for it I suppose. A friend of mine wanted a hunting rifle and has done that, what he did was buy a lock from L+R Lock and took the drum out of the barrel and fit a homemade vent liner made from a stainless metric bolt. I finished his metal parts and did his wood. You may also need to adjust the position of your triggers your mileage may vary. Not sure how much they charge for their locks at this time you may find try finding a old CVA flint lock someone has laying around and it would be cheaper but not the quality of a L&R. His is a .58 good shooting rifle very tight bore also his rifle was a box of unfinished parts he paid like $75.00 for it
Don't Tread On me


 
LHunter 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1389
LHunter
02-05-12 11:21 PM - Post#1106371    

    In response to LHunter

I would also add that if your's is a one of the USA made rifles I would let it alone.
Don't Tread On me


 
Cascade Pete 
40 Cal.
Posts: 315
Cascade Pete
02-06-12 05:04 AM - Post#1106391    

    In response to Lead Slinger

Have one Myself, and have been considering the same thing. Check the DGW catalouge, and You should find what You need...You may need to do some research on the Lock, But L&R has one that will drop in. I think TOTW has a liner that will screw into the bolster hole, when the bolster is removed. You may have to drill it a bit bigger for better ignition....Even if it is a USA Made one, go for it. I have found a bunch of them around My area lately...the one I am converting, I paid $180 for, and it is in excellent shape.
You may want to consider changing the trigger guard and rear sight to something More traditional. DGW has these in their catolouge also. It will look a bit more period. Also adding round thimbles helps the look also...

 
zimmerstutzen 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4817
02-06-12 05:21 AM - Post#1106395    

    In response to Cascade Pete

The breech design does not lend itself to just pulling the drum
The drum is theaded across the breech

Probably easier to drill outu

 
Lead Slinger 
40 Cal.
Posts: 436
02-06-12 07:05 AM - Post#1106415    

    In response to zimmerstutzen

Zimmer, I remember now about the Breech Plug design.What I was after was a Flinter I could use in the Pa. late season. I took my Custom flinter out this past season and fell and hit a Log with it. the only damage was a little dent in the Stock. The way I stagger around anymore , I would like a , guess you would call it a beater Gun,to use. Me things maybe just let things as is and try and pick up a used Thompson......Thanks for the replys.

 
hank 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1865
02-06-12 08:49 AM - Post#1106444    

    In response to Lead Slinger

I believe that the bolster on the percussion lock goes into the breech block, and is a safety measure..if you pull it as the wiser ones suggest, you'll obviate that safety. Hank

 
Rod L 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1418
Rod L
02-06-12 08:56 AM - Post#1106446    

    In response to Lead Slinger

Years ago, My father & I converted my CVA Frontier rifle to flint. As the drum threads into the breachplug, we pulled the drum, and turned a solid screw to thread [oddball metric threads, too, threaded them on the lathe] into the hole. Marked where to drill the hole for what I guess would be called a powder chamber for lack of a better description (don't drill all the way through), then marked and drilled a vent hole to meet the other hole (roughly 90 degrees). Put a screwdriver slot on it, too.

Kind of a complicated process, but it worked. I used the regular CVA flintlock, no other choice at the time, which worked ok as long as I paid alot of attention to the flint--had to be razor sharp and set just so or it wouldn't work. With the replacement locks available today, that probably wouldn't be such a problem. I don't know if all that would be worth it, when there are plenty of purpose-made flinters that will fill the bill on the market today.

Rod

 
zimmerstutzen 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4817
02-06-12 10:48 AM - Post#1106501    

    In response to Lead Slinger

Cutting the drum flush and then drilling and tapping for a touch hole liner would be the best way to handle it. Not impossible, but unless you already have a CVA flint lock to install, it seems a shame to cut up a MTN rifle. (I think they were the best round ball production gun ever made)

I bought a CVA frontier rifle (perc) years ago. and last year found a partial frontier flint lock kit, the lock and barrel were there, so I now have a frontier rifle that converts back and forth by changing the barrel and lock.

If you watch the on-line auctions CVA barrelss come up regularly. You need to know if the hook is the same and maybe a hawken barrel can be fitted with minor adjustment.

 
Rifleman1776 
Cannon
Posts: 14318
Rifleman1776
02-06-12 11:49 AM - Post#1106522    

    In response to hank

  • hank Said:
I believe that the bolster on the percussion lock goes into the breech block, and is a safety measure..if you pull it as the wiser ones suggest, you'll obviate that safety. Hank



Agree. The conversion idea seems impractical to me. A drop in designed for the stock would be a better approach.
But, by the time a barrel is made and lock purchased, he wouldn't be far away from the cost of having a nice rifle made by a builder.


 
fishspike 
32 Cal.
Posts: 45
02-06-12 11:50 AM - Post#1106523    

    In response to zimmerstutzen

I have a 3 mountain rifles my first was a .54 cal. flintlock kit from deer creek which hase a non-typical round tail spanish lock. The other 2 are .50 cal percussion.

The one I am working on now was from unfinished .50 cal percussion kit. I got a .45 flintlock barrel off ebay ( a seller there post a lot of new old stock barrels .45 and .50 cal flint and percussion) and am going to set it up to be a switch hitter flint/percussion.

I did replace the lock on the deer creek with an L&R and it is very consistent, I also opened up the recess in the breech plug by use a dremel with the flex connection down the barrel, this improved the ignition consistancy (for me). I do think the spanish locks can be tuned to work just fine and i'm working on that now.

These rifles shoot great with a tightly patched round ball. I have never seen a mountain rifle with a spanish barrel.

Bob

 
LHunter 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1389
LHunter
02-06-12 12:22 PM - Post#1106539    

    In response to fishspike

Fishspike they do shoot well wouldnt mind having one myself. I wasnt in on the vent conversion but I can ask him it works well for him .
Don't Tread On me


 
Kentuckywindage 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2529
Kentuckywindage
02-06-12 12:23 PM - Post#1106540    

    In response to Lead Slinger

just order a new barrel and lock from Deer Creek.

 
hanshi 
Cannon
Posts: 8417
02-06-12 12:38 PM - Post#1106544    

    In response to Lead Slinger

I can't really offer an informed opinion but can tell you I also have a CVA Mountain rifle I sure would like to rebuild and convert to flint. Mine has 15/16" Douglas .45 x 32" barrel. I'm missing some parts, namely trigger, lock/drum and breech plug. I figured with all these parts missing it shouldn't cost any more to build it as a flintlock than as a percussion. I guess mine is one of the American made guns as the barrel is stamped USA. Id be very interested in how your build goes.
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.


 
Cascade Pete 
40 Cal.
Posts: 315
Cascade Pete
02-06-12 05:31 PM - Post#1106647    

    In response to fishspike

The Spanish Barrel ones have a K on the front part of the serial number. Stands for Kit, as 99% of the kits were made in Spain. Guess they did not want crappy looking rifles running around with "Made In The USA" stamped on the barrel...

 
fishspike 
32 Cal.
Posts: 45
02-07-12 09:16 AM - Post#1106864    

    In response to Cascade Pete

It is my understanding that european barrels are proofed and stamped with the country of origin as a matter of law.
Imported CVA barrels are clearly marked spain. All CVA sidelocks i have looked at except the Mountain Rifles are marked spain. On the Mountain Rifle I believe all the hardware is imported but that the Stocks (at least the maple ones) and barrels were made here. I am given to believe that barrels were manufactured by Deer Creek for CVA and that Deer Creek then sold kits on their own.

My flintlock was put together from a Deer Creek kit I got new in the box at a gun show and has a birds eye maple stock. The two percussions i have have curly maple stocks. One barrel is marked Made in USA and the other is not niether has a k in the serial number. The Deer Creek is only marked with the caliber. The NOS flintlock barrel i got on ebay is only marked with the caliber and was represented as made for CVA by Deer Creek.

There was a past thread about the designer of the mountain rifle and the prototype being built with a douglas barrel, after that the american source for the barrles is obscure to me, except that Deer Creek seems like the last to make the barrels.


Bob

 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 12279
necchi
02-07-12 03:37 PM - Post#1107031    

    In response to fishspike

Well said fishspike,
This thread has many misconceptions about the Mountain Rilfe, the breech and the rifles design.
I'm sure glad Lead Slinger decided to keep his MR as he has it intact.
JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
Kapow 
45 Cal.
Posts: 915
Kapow
02-09-12 01:12 AM - Post#1107603    

    In response to fishspike

Could you possibly elaborate on how you opened up the breech plug for me please?

 
Cascade Pete 
40 Cal.
Posts: 315
Cascade Pete
02-09-12 04:12 AM - Post#1107614    

    In response to fishspike

Underside of the earlier barrels, Made By Douglas, Are Marked with a "D", Later ones were made in Spain, and marked as such. Deer Creek came along later(after CVA went bankrupt, and re organized), bought all of the old stock, and began making 1 in 70" twist barrels, as opposed to the Douglas that are 1 in 66" twist. I have even heard of, and have laid eyes on Spanish barrels made in 1 in 48" twist.
I buy and sell only Mountain Rifles in My shop(CVA and Johnathan Browning), and have handled maybe 200, give or take 1 or 2, in My 10 years of dealing with them. I have observed The "K" on kits, and no "K" on kits. There are many variations. Alot of it has to do with serial number range, and who made the Rifle.
So as with any study, one will find many different variations. I keep a note book on the serial numbers, and changes made in certain ranges. Photographs and a serial number and I can give You a ball park view of who, what, where, when and How. As I would never use the Expert moniker( I believe "Experts" are more full of themselves than reliable information).. I will use the term well informed....

 
necchi 
Cannon
Posts: 12279
necchi
02-09-12 06:04 AM - Post#1107620    

    In response to Kapow

Kapow, the issue is everything is cross drilled through the threaded sections. Drilling through threads really messes them up and removal can damage the threads that you want to save it's risky removing the drum and the breech plug itelf shouldn't be taken out because not only is it cross drilled they really torque them babies when installed putting alot of stress on the barrel threads.


Guys have done the conversion, but it should be approached by folks with knowledge and proper tools. I have yet to find a gunsmith that will do this for someone, the risk of failure under pressure is too great.

JohnT
Molon Labe~


 
Cascade Pete 
40 Cal.
Posts: 315
Cascade Pete
02-09-12 06:29 AM - Post#1107623    

    In response to necchi

Why not just shave the bolster, tap the inside, and instal a vent liner. Seems like reinventing the wheel putting a nut in there. 9 times out of 10 the bolster breaks at or in the barrel(Yeup, been there, done that). Seems like it would save a step, and stop alot of cussing and guessing. Plus it keeps the integrity of the threads to the breech plug.....Plus it works like a charm, and I can replace My vent liner pretty easy....

 
Ghettogun 
62 Cal.
Posts: 2972
02-09-12 08:19 AM - Post#1107650    

    In response to Cascade Pete

The issue with just drilling out the bolster and inserting a vent liner comes with the very thin remaining bolster thread wall that the vent liner would be installed in.

 
fishspike 
32 Cal.
Posts: 45
02-09-12 11:21 AM - Post#1107727    

    In response to Ghettogun

On my first Deer Creek flintlock I took a dremel with the flex shaft with a conical stone and went down through the muzzle. The handle on the flex shaft was just under the .54 bore anr would not allow the stone to contact the rifling. Less is more as you are relieving the breech plug recess at the shoulder.

Oh but this time working on a .45 caliber flintlock barrel and being 10 years wiser I got the lesson I deserved.

I went to pull the breech plug so as to open the plug recess a bit (i have pulled and instaled a few on antiques to bring them into shooting condition). I was well aware that the percussion bolster threads into the breech. Took out the vent liner and applied map gas good bench good vise good wrench plug no turn more heat sheared hook. Great #%^*en fantastic, I wanted a flat faced breech plug anyway.I drilled with a 3/8 bit through the plug, more heat easy-out no go.

Whatever,no biggy, I sawed and inch off the barrel to get into the forensics of the problem. There is a vent hole vent hole liner, a bushing really which threads into the breech plug acting as a breech plug keeper. The bushing may even be the same diameter are the percussion bolster thread making for an easier conversion.

Now i get to put in a flat faced plug 5/8-18 and go with coned vent hole liner at the location of my choosing, oh yeah i get to move the under lugs too.

Bob

 
fishspike 
32 Cal.
Posts: 45
02-09-12 11:38 AM - Post#1107732    

    In response to Cascade Pete

That for the info Pete. So if is not marked spain is it USA?

I keep reading that Deer Creek produced barrels for CVA and then on there own, with the old Douglas machinery.

Bob

 
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