• This community needs YOUR help today. We rely 100% on Supporting Memberships to fund our efforts. With the ever increasing fees of everything, we need help. We need more Supporting Members, today. Please invest back into this community. I will ship a few decals too in addition to all the account perks you get.



    Sign up here: https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/account/upgrades

English/NWT Fusil? for I.D. & Comment

Muzzleloading Forum

Help Support Muzzleloading Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Joined
May 24, 2005
Messages
4,876
Reaction score
4,178
A co-worker of mine said he had an old gun that has been in his family for 35 years. No one has any idea how it was obtained. He brought it to work and asked if I could reconize it. Little did I believe this is what he would bring.
Lock plate is marked "Barnett 1836". The only mark inside the lock plate is the number 33. Barrel is 36" long, tapered octagon-to-round, octagon for the first 14", about 20 guage. Only marks on the bottom of the barrel on the bottom flat back by the breech are the letters HF or HE and the #52. No marks on the inside/outside of the butt plate or side plate. I've tried to provide some good photos. OPINIONS PLEASE. Thanks, Rick.
DSC00499Medium.jpg

DSC00500Medium.jpg

DSC00501Medium.jpg

DSC00508Medium.jpg

DSC00509Medium.jpg

DSC00506Medium.jpg

DSC00507Medium.jpg

DSC00505Medium.jpg

DSC00504Medium.jpg

DSC00502Medium.jpg

DSC00503Medium.jpg

DSC00510Medium.jpg

DSC00526Medium.jpg

DSC00525Medium.jpg

DSC00512Medium.jpg

DSC00516Medium.jpg

DSC00527Medium.jpg

DSC00524Medium.jpg

DSC00517Medium.jpg

DSC00520Medium.jpg
 
Original NW Trade gun--converted from flint to percussion. Not bad condition considering most of these did not survive to the present.
 
Need a close up of the fox logo on the lock. Very nice piece. You hardly ever see these. I live in the Pacific Northwest, where these were used, and I never see them..Nice find...
 
Hi Mike. My co-worker has no interest in old guns. So, should I let him know what he really has? Or should I tell him it's just an old percussion gun - and try to buy it for a couple hundred dollars!! :grin: I'm starting to feel greedy. :hmm: Rick.
 
Hi Curator. The LOP is 13 1/2" which I guess represents the smaller stature of people during this time. When he said he wanted to bring me an old gun to look at, I was guessing it would be an old shotgun or something. You know what I mean. Imagine my surprise when he walks into the office with an original NWT Fusil. I almost filled my pants. :haha: I had a four day weekend and told him I would research the gun. I was trying to keep my cool. Maybe I should tell him I need to hold on to it for a year to do an in-depth study? :rotf: I'm going to try and buy this gun. He thinks it's worth only a couple hundred dollars. What do you guys think? Rick.
 
Hi Pete. You can't make out the Sitting Fox on the lock plate. I can just barely see where the etching was. Darn. :( The far edge of the tumbler where it meets the mainspring is broke off. And not that long ago. :cursing: I can see bare metal. That's why the hammer sits in that position. so the mainspring doesn't fall out. Yes, wish the Sitting Fox was still visible. :( Amazingly, the muzzle does not look like it's been cut back. This is the first one I've ever held. Only seen originals in museums. This appears to be a rare survivor. Rick.
12-16-11Medium.jpg
 
That is not a sitting fox. It is a tombstone fox, I can see the upright fox in the top part of the tombstone and it looks like "I J" in the bottom half. I'd like to know for sure if it isn't "E B" (Edward Bond) which would make it definately a Hudson's Bay Co. gun. American Fur Co. faked the tombstone stamps to be "identical to those of the Hudson's Bay Company" and this could be one. Should be an identical stamp on the top flat of the barrel and a series of proof and view stamps on the oblique flat too. (Oblique flat is the slanted flat oposite of the lock) Take a look please.
 
Could the initials in the bottom half of the fox stamp be J A ? (John Astor) If so then I have some ideas about your gun. That and the unusual serpent sideplate (yes, it is unusual..) are giving me reasons to hit the books.

Sooner or later Sean and/or Rod will see this post and have more/different information for you.
 
Yes Matt after seeing your first post I almost commented that to me, those letters look like a J and if I had to guess an A to me..
 
Something about that fox stamp struck me as odd. I blew it up on my computer. The first initial is definately a J. Then it occured to me... EVERY picture and reference I have of tombstone fox stamps shows the fox facing left. The one on this gun is facing right. Very strange.
 
Hi Laffindog. Thanks for your input. I tried to clean up the lockplate and left barrel flat a bit with some penatrating oil and a light rub with 0000 steel wool. Here's some additional photos. The cleaning did not clear up much more on the lockplate. But, the first letter is definately a "J". The second could be an "A", but just can't make it out. If we know the first letter is a J, what are the possible combinations?
Note the markings on the barrel flat. One is a "Crown" with the letter "V" just below it. The other mark above it looks like a backward P ? Rick.
12-16-11002Medium.jpg

12-16-11001Medium.jpg

12-16-11004Medium.jpg

12-16-11003Medium.jpg
 
OK. Found another barrel mark. It's on the top flat. It's so faint, I can just barely make it out. This is the best photo I can make. It's definately a circle, with what looks like a series of small dots in the shape of a cross. (?) But for sure, a circle.
DSC00551Medium.jpg
 
Hello again. I want to thank everyone for their input. I hope to receive additional information on this gun from others as well. I know there are people on this Forum that have forgotton more than I know about NWT Fusils.
Meantime, I was able to purchase this gun!!! It's not in my normal line of collecting, but I could not pass up the opportunity. What a great addition to a collection. There's so much History tied to these guns. Anyway, there's three things I was thinking of doing: 1) The two under lugs on the barrel are missing. Not broke, just missing. Should I have two underlugs soldered on so I can use two pins and get rid of the wire holding the barrel to the stock? 2) The breech plug is not threaded all the way to the breech (see photos above). Should I have this removed and threaded in further? 3) The tumbler is broke off where it meets the mainspring. Should I install a new tumbler (maybe from TRS) or have a new one made?
Or, should I just leave it as-is? OPINIONS PLEASE. Thanks, Rick.
 
DOG! I'd leave it alone. I have several antiques in that condition and just enjoy them for what they are with no plans of restoration.
 
Hi Mike. No, no, no. I will NOT try to "restore" this gun. I know better. Just hate to see that wire wraped around the barrel and stock. :(
I guess maybe the three things I mentioned could be considered restoration. Thanks, Rick.
 
I had to go digging through Hanson & Harmon, Encyclopedia of Trade Goods: Firearms of the Fur Trade. What I can tell is that you have a Belgian knockoff off the standard NW gun, probably made for Astor's American Fur company, possibly the Western Department or the Upper Missouri Outfit. It closely matches guns found on pages 329 and 332. The sideplate is a dead ringer for the gun on page 332. The circle atop the barrel is the remains of the Belgian proof, ELG in a circle (see page 329). Usually, this is an oval proofmark, but not always. The backwards P on the oblique flat is what's left of a spurious crown GP (fake English proof--see the one on page 332). Same with the crown V. The tombstone fox is a bit of a puzzler, although I'd have to say that with Belgian guns, all bets are off when it comes to markings.

I would very seriously suggest that you email the Museum of the Fur Trade with the pics you've posted here and ask for an opinion.

[email protected]

As for restoration, I'd go very lightly, if at all. IF it were mine, I MIGHT try getting the breechplug all the way in--if it didn't go very easily with a bit of penetrating oil, then I'd leave it alone. I'm not sure what to do about the lugs--if the barrel were securely fastened to the stock, it would reduce the risk of stock damage (I worry every time I pull a barrel out of a full stock, one wrong bump and that forestock would snap without the barrel in it). Either way, I would very much recommend you ask a professional---I'm sure that someone here could recommend one. Don't go overboard---as it is, you have a gun worth quite a bit of money the way it is.

Rod
 
Rod: Thank you so much for your imput. I very much appreciate it. This is getting more interesting all the time. I will send these photos to the Link you provided. Again, thank you very much. Have a great Christmas. Rick.
 
It is my opinion that you have an American Fur Company trade gun, Belgian made, simulating a Barnett of the HBC.
If it were mine, I would do no "restoration", but would stabilize what is there to prevent future deterioration.
As you are aware, these things are uncommon in any condition, the survival rate being extremely low.
 
Back
Top