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Login Name Post: Ligonier center-seam moccasins        (Topic#263771)
iron maiden 
32 Cal.
Posts: 17
12-04-11 05:59 PM - Post#1076694    


I'm trying to find a decent pair of center-seam moccasins for my F&I War persona. I'm having a bit of trouble in finding what I'm looking for. I did come across the Arrow Moccasin Co. who had the center-seam and Ligonier style moccasins. I like the looks of these, and they seem to have a slightly thicker sole than some of the other ones out there.

Does anybody here know much about this company or these mocs? I have a pair of Carl Dyer's moccasins, which are comfortable as slippers, but really aren't historically accurate. I'm hoping these mocs will be pretty close to accurate.

Thanks in advance. Here's the Link

 
Black Hand 
Cannon
Posts: 6457
12-04-11 07:36 PM - Post#1076728    

    In response to iron maiden

Arrow moccasins fit in the same category as Dyer moccasins, historically inspired but not historically accurate.

I'd go for a centerseam or a pucker-vamp style moccasins, but also depends on the "who", "what", and "where" you are. Buckle shoes (with or without buckles) would also be appropriate.



 
fort fireman 
45 Cal.
Posts: 715
fort fireman
12-05-11 03:52 PM - Post#1077100    

    In response to Black Hand

I have a pair of the ligoner mocs from Arrow. I like them but they aren't historically accurate. They are a tad big for me so I can wear layers of wool sock underneath. I hunt in them and really like them. I also made a pair of centerseam mocs out of some of the german tanned deer skins from crazycrow. they aren't brain tanned but about as close as you can get without the real thing.

 
ravenwolf 
32 Cal.
Posts: 8
12-05-11 04:55 PM - Post#1077136    

    In response to fort fireman

Hello, I also have been looking at these mocs. I asked on another forum, and told them I was just starting out, long story short I was more confused about the whole what is OR is not period footwear, for 1750-1770 I got the buckle shoe message and I will get some, But from the books I read know body was wearing buckle shoes, out on the Pa. frontier. Maybe the way I was descibing my persona OR what I thought would be my persona, came out wrong? Any how a friend took me to Fort Frederick last April I then have been working on getting the clothes etc. BUT the footwear issue has taken a long time. I HUNT with the flintlock and want to trek, and spend time in the woods in all kinds of weather. IT LOOKS to me that someone should be making whatever MOCCASIN is out there that IS historically correct. Thanks for letting a NEW longhunter, INDIAN lover, Hippie treker, or whatever, GIRTY sounds like he had it together the more I read about him? just playing, BUT seriously, Best to you and yours; Ravenwolf;

 
iron maiden 
32 Cal.
Posts: 17
12-05-11 05:54 PM - Post#1077171    

    In response to ravenwolf

Thanks for the input. I've also found some center seams from Smoke & Fire Co. which, I am told by others in this hobby, would be historically accurate. Link


 
iron maiden 
32 Cal.
Posts: 17
12-05-11 06:03 PM - Post#1077175    

    In response to iron maiden

I've also come across a pair from Weeping Heart Trade Company Link. I sent them an email, but I haven't heard back from them in over a month, which is why I thought I'd ask you fine folks here for advice.

Does anybody know if Weeping Heart is still in business?

 
grzrob 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1781
grzrob
12-05-11 06:06 PM - Post#1077178    

    In response to iron maiden

Why are the Ligonier moccasins not PC? They are copied from originals found in an archeological dig. I do not mean to stir up any thread counters out there, I am just wondering.

 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
12-05-11 06:15 PM - Post#1077183    

    In response to grzrob

I was under the impression that they were more of an impression of what was left of a pair of surviving Mocs and not really a copy as such,someone posted what was suppose to be the originals and as I recall there was not much similarity unless I am thinking of something else that was posted. I have a pair and they work for my level in the winter, they do come larger thna foot size going by mine but that leave room for my period Boar tex socks I have light weight deer hide cs mocs I made for summer use

 
crockett 
Cannon
Posts: 6179
12-06-11 02:12 PM - Post#1077597    

    In response to grzrob

It's not that they aren't PC it is whether they were very common. On the soft soled center seam- there is also an issue about whether the seam ends at the point or goes under the toe area just a bit.
Soft soled mocs- you pretty much have to make them yourself. Get a good pattern template- some guys sew them up in about 20 minutes if they aren't going to be decorated. (Takes me some what longer)

 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
12-06-11 02:40 PM - Post#1077610    

    In response to crockett

Most consider that the pucker toe which brings the beginning of the seam on top is the correct method as is not harder to do than to just start sewing underneath the, I suspect that neophtyes or some in hurry or with little experience any have made a variety of 'styles' at one time or another just some thoughts

Edited by tg on 12-06-11 02:41 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Flies Only 
40 Cal.
Posts: 291
Flies Only
12-06-11 07:55 PM - Post#1077787    

    In response to tg

i have a pair of arrowws legionairs that i use for camp slippers at reenactments..i love them.. for what i paid i would make the next pair..but i would nt trade these away..i am with tg on his thought of varied mocs due to materials and maker talent...

 
hawkeye2 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2122
12-07-11 11:50 AM - Post#1078062    

    In response to Flies Only

I have been looking at these for a long time and just haven't gotten arrount to ordering a pair. How would you rate them for longevity/durability? Do you think they could be resoled asilly?

 
Kapellmeister 
Moderator
Posts: 2091
Kapellmeister
12-07-11 12:04 PM - Post#1078073    

    In response to hawkeye2

I would rate 'em as "very" durable... that's one reason why I wear them.

As far as historical correctness, they were patterned after the "Sketchbook '76" interpretation of the "shoe pack" from Ft. Ligonier. There's been some thought that said sketchbook interpretation was not quite right. Also, the leather (especially the chrome tanned sole) is not pc. So, even though they're not really correct, I put them a notch above Dyers and Poppins for historical correctness - if there is such a scale.

For this "tenderfoot", the durability and comfort afforded by the thick sole is enough for me to make a concession. Hey, I even put some Dr. Scholl's insoles with an arch support in them... but you wouldn't have known that if I hadn't told you.

By the way, Arrow even states that they cannot resole these mocs.

YMMV!
~s.D.g. ~


 
grzrob 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1781
grzrob
12-07-11 02:31 PM - Post#1078174    

    In response to Kapellmeister

Long before Arrow started making Ligonier, I made a pair from scratch looking at the picture in Newman's book, I loved them until it was time to re sole them! One time I started the stitching in the wrong hole. It was right on the top layer and I missed on the sole. Do you know when you find out your stitches are out of place? When you get to the last couple of holes! I re soled mine three times before I wore out the uppers. By this time I was needing more arch support so I went another way. I was a happy camper when Arrow started making the Ligonier Moccasins! If I ever want to get another pair of these, I don't have to make them from scratch! Yeah Arrow Co. !

 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
12-07-11 04:48 PM - Post#1078256    

    In response to grzrob

I would think that for mosts level of the game the Liegionere would be acceptable, I would have a real hard time not going into a gun history discussion if someone with a straight barrels F&I rifle with a vent liner commented that my legioners were no acceptable for re-enacting, not that one wrong justifys another, but often we tend to critiqe others before we have cleaned our own camp, and few if any are 100% on the money historicaly but if we try to get as close as we are able within our means KNOWING AND ACCEPTING AND ACKNOWLEDGING our shortfalls we are headed in the right direction I think, the biggest trap to avoid is not to find stuff we like in a catalouge or by seeing other re-enactors then trying to find a way to research or spin it into history, but to start with a persona and place and time of interest and research what was used and pick from the listto fill our kit, "backfilling" is probably the biggest culprit to the use and promotion of the "wrong" stuff IMHO, again no flame at anyone just some thoughts on the matter.I may be 100% wrong but do not think so.

 
iron maiden 
32 Cal.
Posts: 17
12-10-11 11:22 PM - Post#1079793    

    In response to tg

I would like to thank all of you for your comments. I would like to have some moccasins which have a thicker sole than some of the center seam / pucker toe moccasins which are around. I mostly wear straight last buckle shoes, but was wanting a pair of moccasins which would be more historically accurate than Carl Dyer's, which I already own, but I don't wear at many events.

I like the Dyer's moccasins because that they are super comfortable, and the double thick soles makes them quite easy on the feet. I try to make as good and historically accurate a presentation as possible, but I'm also diabetic. So, historical accuracy is going to take a back seat as far as my feet are concerned. I've seen the guys who have the center seams with the thin soles, and I'd rather have a better shoe with thicker soles on my feet.

If these shoes are close, and it sounds like they are, then I'll probably go with them. I like the Weeping Heart Ligonier mocs, but I've given up on getting an answer from them.



Edited by iron maiden on 12-10-11 11:23 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Black Hand 
Cannon
Posts: 6457
12-11-11 08:01 AM - Post#1079854    

    In response to iron maiden

Look at the Hi-Low Trekker boots.
Additionally, there is nothing wrong with sewing a thick sole onto traditional moccasins, and as you are diabetic, add insoles. You could also look into Soulier de Boeuf.

Here is a place where PC/HC MUST take a back seat to health issues!

 
whiskey 
40 Cal.
Posts: 297
12-11-11 10:39 AM - Post#1079953    

    In response to Kapellmeister

even the thinnest soled moc can be made comfortable by padding the inside. I use various things like thick insoles from the store, or insoles out of old running shoes or those very thick wool felt insoles for winter boots. All these smooth out the roughest trail.
As to wear on the sole. I were mocs everyday as part of my job at a historic site. I am a big guy and would wear out soles in a few days if I didn't do something. So, I put a thin coat of "Shoe Goo" on the bottom. It wears very good, I only have to touch it up occaissionly. I haven't had to repair moc soles in years!!! The shoe goo has a shiney appearance at first but walk around for a few minutes and it pretty much looks natural.

 
iron maiden 
32 Cal.
Posts: 17
12-11-11 09:07 PM - Post#1080211    

    In response to whiskey

I got a pair of the Fugawee Hi-Lows, but they don't ft real well...wish I could trade them in, but I wore them out, so they're not exactly brand new.
Perhaps I could trade them in. I've tried the Flying Canoe Traders buckle shoes, but they seem to want to have them pretty tight, which isn't real comfortable.

Does anybody know if Weeping Heart Trade Co. is still in business?


 
Kapellmeister 
Moderator
Posts: 2091
Kapellmeister
12-11-11 09:51 PM - Post#1080234    

    In response to iron maiden

You could probably sell the Fugawee's here in the classified pretty quickly.

Don't know about Weeping Heart, but have you checked out Rob Land Historical Footwear ? He's got hi-lo's too. I personally find his shoes to fit better than any others including Flying Canoe and Fugawee but obviously, shoes are in the "YMMV" category!

Good luck!
~s.D.g. ~


 
iron maiden 
32 Cal.
Posts: 17
12-11-11 10:04 PM - Post#1080238    

    In response to Kapellmeister

Thanks for the advice. If I can get my hands on a digital camera, I might just list the shoes for sale since they don't fit me.

 
Marc Adamchek 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1590
12-18-11 07:20 PM - Post#1083737    

    In response to Black Hand

I bought a pair of Arrow' Soulier de Boeuf "moccasins" (with warm comfy lining, of course) about 12 years ago, just to have something remotely connected with "woodlands couture". Back then I half believed their spiel about the French traders wearing them, but really, there's no way these can be considered HC, is there? (They're really great by the way)

 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
12-19-11 08:33 AM - Post#1083931    

    In response to Marc Adamchek

That would probably depend on the time period from what I have seen on various posts about them and I do not recall what period some said they were "good" for

 
Dusty 14 
40 Cal.
Posts: 147
Dusty 14
12-19-11 10:40 AM - Post#1083992    

    In response to tg

many a period correct clothing item gets washed out
by the thread counters when they are sewn on a machine to keep the price down. my mocs are a piece of art hand sewn and therefore a bit more expensive than similar mocs not hand made. wear any style you want but machine sewn ain,t ever going to be period correct

 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
12-19-11 02:35 PM - Post#1084113    

    In response to Dusty 14

Hand made or machine made is generaly not a pre requsite for being PC/HC much like the steel barrels or ventliners we use, the style and design is what is looked at, often the materials/methods of manufacture are not a big issue when looking at a correct representation of an item used in the past,one can hand sew a linen shirt but the linen was not processed the same or is probably not the same genetic strain as was used same for wool and the linage of the sheep, generally one goes for as close as is practical. yet avoid the anything goes cause they did not have steel barrels back then

 
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