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Login Name Post: Short German rifle.        (Topic#255311)
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-25-11 01:07 PM - Post#964006    



These dealer have some great guns, oh....My wish is is getting long.

But, a flintlock these short? Was that normal back then?
Or, was it special made? For what?

http://www.bolk-antiques.nl/showimagebig.cfm?cat=1209&su...

Thanks for looking all.

 
Treerat 
40 Cal.
Posts: 113
Treerat
02-25-11 01:37 PM - Post#964020    

    In response to Vegard Dino

The typical german rifles seem to be a lot shorter than their American cousins. As for special made, well they all were for people with plenty of money it seems as in if you didn't own land you could'nt hunt. By the way, that looks pretty mint to be an original. I'll take their word that it is, I'm just used to seeing old American pieces that were used hard and often abused.
Bill

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
02-25-11 01:45 PM - Post#964021    

    In response to Vegard Dino

There are a few other German guns on there as well. German Jaegers were on the short side and it would have been typical. That site makes me wish I was a rich man! I'm actually using pic's of a French gun from this site for a build.


 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-25-11 02:27 PM - Post#964033    

    In response to Swampy


Thanks for the information.
Why was the american guns longer?

Yes, the guns from the dealer are great...But, to use one today for hunting?? Madness I guess.

Swampy, can I ask what gun your having made?

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
02-25-11 03:05 PM - Post#964044    

    In response to Vegard Dino

The gun is no longer on the site, guess it was sold. I have the pic's saved though as it will basically be copied.

http://www.nimrodsplace.com/frenchrifleproject.html


 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-25-11 03:32 PM - Post#964049    

    In response to Swampy



Oh, nice
What caliber?

I like the metal work. Very nice, like the trigger guard to.
You make a exact reproduction?


 
odd fellow 
45 Cal.
Posts: 569
odd fellow
02-25-11 03:36 PM - Post#964055    

    In response to Swampy

Roy will love that project!

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
02-25-11 03:41 PM - Post#964061    

    In response to odd fellow

No thats a Mike Brooks project lol.


 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
02-25-11 03:43 PM - Post#964062    

    In response to Vegard Dino

  • Vegard Dino Said:


Oh, nice
What caliber?

I like the metal work. Very nice, like the trigger guard to.
You make a exact reproduction?




I'm not the builder, I'm having it built by Mike Brooks.
The gun will have a custom 34" oct/rnd .62 rifled barrel. The build will be based on this gun with minor differences.


 
Stophel 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5185
Stophel
02-25-11 03:55 PM - Post#964071    

    In response to Vegard Dino

Super nice rifle. I will presume Austrian or somewhere S.E. under the Austrian sphere of gunmaking influence.

German rifles are generally "short". 2 or 2 1/2 foot long barrels. Sometimes shorter, sometimes longer.


 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
02-25-11 04:00 PM - Post#964074    

    In response to Vegard Dino

During the 17th and 18th century flintlocks were often quite long in many countries with 4' barrels and longer probably due to their ballistic theories of the time, it also was applied to naval cannon, there were also longer German rifles early durng the early rifle period the short gun was made for a specific purpose from what I have heard from a couple of sources but was not the norm as the rifle culture grew world wide, and the Americamn longrifle did not result from the stretching of the barrel of a German Jeager, many factors were envolved in its development during the 18th century some feel quite early in the 18th century considering the typical long batrreled smoothbores of the time it is not a real surpries that when applying the rifleing technique to guns that the long barrel would be kept in some cases unless there was a specific reason to shorten it that did not exist for a smoothbore, there is much speculation about the when and why of the barrel length of the rifle in the 18th century as the number of dated surviving specimens is so limited but there is some information that allows some educated guesses so to speak to be put forth on the topic.Others with far more knowledge than I may have more to add to this interesting and very rudimentary topic abot early rifles.

 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-25-11 04:13 PM - Post#964079    

    In response to tg



Thanks a lot for the information. Very interesting to learn more. Make it great, great to learn more about muzzleloaders and there development, here in Europe and in the US/Canada.

Swampy, a great you are getting

Stophel, the Germans also made even shorter rifles? What was the "shortest" one was able to go, back then when thinking of getting the effectiveness out of the black powder?

Where the rifles shorter in the S.E of Germany/Bavarian area and Austria, compared to the rest of Germany?



 
Stophel 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5185
Stophel
02-25-11 05:38 PM - Post#964115    

    In response to Vegard Dino

There's no regional barrel length differences, so a Prussian gun is no more likely to be shorter or longer than a Bavarian gun. 28" seems to be a good average.

I have a ca. 1830 German rifle with a 16" barrel. I have seen them shorter, but they're not common.

The really stubby barreled guns are usually referred to as "Saustützen" for hunting wild hogs in heavy cover....so they say.

The reasons for the 2-3' long "short" barrels would be that rifles were probably as often as not used for target shooting. Target shooting was THE sport in 18th century Germany, and it seems everyone was involved. German rifles (usually) are marvelously designed ergonomic shooting machines. They balance perfectly just in front of the lock. Longer rifle barrels push that balance point way further forward...not to mention the fact that they are simply heavier! Also, remember the tradition in German rifles, where previously, wheel lock rifles had a cheek stock, no butt to put to your shoulder, so it would be rather difficult to hold a rifle with a long heavy barrel without benefit of a butt to put to the shoulder!

There are longer barreled German rifles. Some are "Vogel Pirsch Büchsen" (bird stalking rifles),and are small caliber. These are fairly uncommon. Then there are heavy bench rest rifles, which are fairly common, and will have stout barrels 40+ inches in length.

Edited by Stophel on 02-25-11 05:49 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-26-11 07:23 AM - Post#964322    

    In response to Stophel



Hi

Thanks for the great information.

The "Vogel Pirsch Büchsen", what calibers where they normally made in?
Interesting to se one.
Was it made for taking shots at sitting birds in trees/ground?



 
Stophel 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5185
Stophel
02-26-11 07:37 AM - Post#964327    

    In response to Vegard Dino

The only one I have online:



Yes, for sitting birds and other small game. I think this one is something like .38 caliber.

The barrel is much older than the rifle, which is early 1700's.

 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-26-11 11:08 AM - Post#964400    

    In response to Stophel



Hello

Thanks for the photo.
A interesting gun. LIke to learn more about that style.

Also, the Saustützen, you know more about them?




 
Stophel 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5185
Stophel
02-26-11 11:31 AM - Post#964406    

    In response to Vegard Dino

There's not a whole lot of the really short rifles, but they can be found here and there.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Original%...

This is mine. The lock is much older and was flint, though I think the gun as it is was always percussion (I have the hammer and nipple and all). The lock has no bridle. Somebody screwed up the tumbler by drilling through it and putting in a brass screw and nut to hold the hammer on. Eventually, I may make a new tumbler to go in it.

It's in the .65 or so caliber range. Rifling twist is one turn in about 32". I believe that originally it was made without a patchbox. At the very least, the current lid is an old replacement.

 
sbhg 
40 Cal.
Posts: 136
02-26-11 12:09 PM - Post#964428    

    In response to Vegard Dino

OK, I know it isn't a FL but I think it's cool and can't resist showin it.
BTW it's not mine, but would love to have an exact copy.







 
Stophel 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5185
Stophel
02-26-11 01:39 PM - Post#964474    

    In response to sbhg

Awesome! And it used to be flint. Very cool take down gun. I've always wondered who these types of guns would be for. Travelers, businessmen??

 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-26-11 02:11 PM - Post#964489    

    In response to sbhg



Ohhhhhhhhh

WOW
That is a nice gun. no, sorry, very nice
Thanks for sharing. Got any information? Caliber, how long?

Love to learn more about these rifle style. Who used them and for what?


 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-26-11 02:13 PM - Post#964490    

    In response to Stophel



Oh, nice

Thanks for sharing.
.65 caliber. You know what the ball weight was originally?
What is the total length?
Really an interesting gun, plan on taking it for a hunting trip?



 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
02-26-11 02:37 PM - Post#964496    

    In response to Stophel



" Very cool take down gun. I've always wondered who these types of guns would be for. Travelers, businessmen??"

Maybe for spys,..... like 07, they probably had a quill pen and a piece of parchment hidden in the lining of their Paul Revere boots


 
sbhg 
40 Cal.
Posts: 136
02-26-11 04:02 PM - Post#964549    

    In response to Vegard Dino

  • Vegard Dino Said:


Ohhhhhhhhh

WOW
That is a nice gun. no, sorry, very nice
Thanks for sharing. Got any information? Caliber, how long?

Love to learn more about these rifle style. Who used them and for what?




No, the only thing I have left is the pics. I had a link to a gunshop or auction house that had it. But it doesn't work anymore and I tried a search of Keuchenreuters name and couldn't find the rifle any place .
I'm affraid it might be lost to history now (insert crying smiley here).

 
Stophel 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5185
Stophel
02-26-11 05:59 PM - Post#964595    

    In response to sbhg

The Kuchenreuters are a VERY well known gunmaking family in Steinweg bei Regensburg.

The initials on the barrel SEEM to say "J C Kuchenreuter", which could be Johann Christoph, 1755-1818. The gun looks about 1770 or earlier, so it could be him, or another slightly earlier family member. I do not have a complete listing of the family, and the initials look kinda funky, so it's hard for me to say.

 
Vegard Dino 
36 Cal.
Posts: 56
02-27-11 03:50 AM - Post#964771    

    In response to tg



LOL

Maybe...Cool if it was so

 
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