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Login Name Post: Ordering TVM EV Rifle, I have some HC questions        (Topic#251800)
Flash Pan Dan 
45 Cal.
Posts: 808
11-17-10 12:52 PM - Post#916211    


I am having TVM build me an Early Virginia Rifle with these specifications:

Chambers Virginia Lock
Rice 38 inch, .54 caliber swamped barrel, browned.
Walnut stock
Brass furniture
PB-6 single lid patch box
Sling swivels

I have a couple of questions regarding HC of the about choices. Should I stay with the single lid patch box or go for the wooden patch box? Walnut or go for the SP++ Maple? And finally would it be accurate to just have some light incise carving? I am thinking of some around the entry pipe, the lock and wrist, and on the butt stock. I would appreciate your insights, opinions and any references you can point out to me.

By the way, I have to say that Toni at TVM is a very gracious and kind lady, if you only knew how many phone calls and emails she has had to put up with from me not only about this rifle but the others I have purchased from them. I enjoy doing business with great folks like them.

Thanks.


 
jbwilliams 
45 Cal.
Posts: 547
jbwilliams
11-17-10 01:23 PM - Post#916225    

    In response to Flash Pan Dan

It depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. You also didn’t mention a particular time period you are shooting for. “Early Virginia” is used quite often although the name is really rather vague. I suggest you read the following article by Gary Brumfield http://www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticle... It’s rather open-ended, as befits the topic.

A couple things you have listed that I would shy away from on an early rifle in general, although you most certainly have the right to do what suits your taste: the browned barrel (browning dates to the 1790s on, bluing from about 1770-maybe a bit earlier), maple would be more common, but a piece of walnut would not be entirely out of place, and the sling swivels (very out of place on a non-military arm, though I could see them being used in a civilian context where a fowling piece is used for militia duty perhaps).

If you’re going pre-1770 early, you can’t go wrong with a wood box, though the very American innovation of the brass box was certainly being used in the 1760’s at some point (albeit not the elaborate daisy heads of the golden age boxes).

Enjoy!


 
jbwilliams 
45 Cal.
Posts: 547
jbwilliams
11-17-10 01:35 PM - Post#916228    

    In response to jbwilliams

Also... I see a lot of guns marketed as early, that have straight ramrods with brass thimbles on each end. Early rods were universally tapered with either a threaded sheet iron tip on the skinny end that goes into the ferrels, or all wood on both ends. Depends on how “HC/PC” you want to be. If you do have a threaded tip to hold worms and jags and such, I suggest have just one on and that it goes into the ramrod ferrels. Even if it is a straight rod, it has a much more historical look having the wood tip sticking out near the muzzle.

Just a nitpick. I’m sure you’ll like it whatever you decide!


 
Mike Brines 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5845
Mike Brines
11-17-10 03:59 PM - Post#916281    

    In response to jbwilliams

I disagree with Mr. Williams, when he says no sling swivels. Slings were put on fowlers and rifles during the RW, and what about Christians Springs rifles with sling swivels?
And usually, I don't know about TVM, but you get a chunk of wood cut from the same block of wood sufficient for a wooden patchbox.
I say make the gun you want. Unless you're a real stickler for histoical accuracy.
And Peter Alexander said in his book, "Gunsmith of Grenville County", that very few of the original rifles he dismantled had any browning or bluing at all on the underside of the barrel. They were finished in the white.

 
Flash Pan Dan 
45 Cal.
Posts: 808
11-17-10 04:31 PM - Post#916295    

    In response to jbwilliams

Gentlemen, Thank you for your responses. Those are exactly the things I wanted to find out. Mr. Williams, I did not know about the bluing/browning time line. I would have hated to find that out after the fact.

I already have a Southern Mountain Rifle for target shooting. I have a Tennessee Poor boy for small game. A plain Jane EVR as a light hunting rifle and a fowler. These are all very plain “working” rifles for specific purposes. For this new rifle I am having built I wanted it to be more historically accurate than my previous rifles. Mr. Brines I appreciate the Christians Springs reference I was having the swivels put on because I am going to be carrying this rifle a lot and was feeling a bit uncertain about it given my stated goal.
I am bit embarrassed to say I haven’t done enough research so I really appreciate the input.


 
ericb 
45 Cal.
Posts: 639
ericb
11-17-10 05:25 PM - Post#916315    

    In response to Flash Pan Dan

I would suggest that if you want an HC Sling, then do it like the Jaegers and Early PA Rifles, i,e, - a sling "swivel" forward, with the rear sling point being a large, well made rounded head screw mounted to the rear of the toe of the stock...

 
hanshi 
Cannon
Posts: 8007
hanshi
11-17-10 06:45 PM - Post#916346    

    In response to jbwilliams

For some reason wooden patchboxes have never particularly impressed me; brass or silver I like. I'm having an Early Lancaster built and want it resembling a pre-Rev rifle. I opted for a single lid pb & Chambers E Germanic lock.

Question: on such a rifle should the swamped barrel be browned or blued or what in order to conform to the earlier standard? I'm not overly concerned about strict HC but would like to conform unless the answer is something I'd not prefer to have.
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.


 
Mike Brines 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5845
Mike Brines
11-17-10 06:59 PM - Post#916361    

    In response to hanshi

Again, it's do what you want. I've heard that the originals weren't finished with anything. When the barrel was removed, the part that was covered by the stock still had it's bright finish. It was later that they started being blued.

 
Capt. Jas. 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2344
11-18-10 06:02 AM - Post#916482    

    In response to hanshi

  • hanshi Said:


Question: on such a rifle should the swamped barrel be browned or blued or what in order to conform to the earlier standard? I'm not overly concerned about strict HC but would like to conform unless the answer is something I'd not prefer to have.



1. Leave bright and let it "brown on it's own
2. cold blue and rub back to give the appearance of a worn fire blue


 
Capt. Jas. 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2344
11-18-10 06:42 AM - Post#916494    

    In response to Capt. Jas.

Flash Pan Dan,

I would go with no sling and wood box.

I would finish the barrel and lock as in my post above. Many times a rough browning is used by some in an attempt to keep from having to polish the casting roughness off of locks and reduce the finish work on a barrel. It does not look correct though.

Whatever wood you go with, don't get caught up with super figured "premium" stuff that's as soft as a sponge.
Request a good hard, dense piece of wood FIRST and then choose figure quality.

Some bit of correct carving would be best in my opinion.

Many of these production type guns I see have way too much wood left on the lock panels of the finished gun. To me it would be worth it to pay extra and get decent panels as it sets the gun off in one of the main eye attraction areas.

If you can get to a copy of Rifles of Colonial America vol. 2 by Shumway or even "Of sorts for Provincials by Jim Mullins you should see a few examples.

If you PM me with your email I can send you some pictures that may help.

The advice on the clubbed ramrod above is good.

Great choices in lock and barrel!


 
Matt PA 
40 Cal.
Posts: 148
Matt PA
11-18-10 09:23 AM - Post#916537    

    In response to Flash Pan Dan

Here's a picture of my Early Virginia (Chambers) that I purchased from "tg" this year.....it's supposed to be a close copy of a Faber gun in RCA I.

Hard to see everything in the picture but here's what it has:
-Nicely done but modest relief carving around the tang transitioning to the beavertails (no molding in front of the lock panels)
-Carved border in the patchbox lid plus thumbprint.
-Double carved belly lines in the buttstock that converge in a tapered point in line with the back of the trigger guard.
-It also has lines in the cheekpiece as well as a modest but nicely done incised scroll behind the cheekpiece.
-There is no carving anywhere forward of the lock panels.
-Trigger guard mounted sling swivel with a nice wide hemp sling.
- Barrel is a 42" swamped Getz in .62 (finished rifle weighs about 8 1/4 lbs)
- Chambers Colonial VA lock
- Barrel and lock both have an aged bleach patina.
- Stock is a mid-grade piece of hard maple stained nice and dark with some nice figuring here and there.

I can take some 360 degree close up pics if you would like.




 
flyfisher76544 
45 Cal.
Posts: 506
flyfisher76544
11-18-10 09:35 AM - Post#916542    

    In response to Matt PA

Ordered mine today.....well my wife did it for me.

 
Mike Brines 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5845
Mike Brines
11-18-10 10:06 AM - Post#916558    

    In response to Matt PA

How did you do the "aged bleach patina"?

 
Matt PA 
40 Cal.
Posts: 148
Matt PA
11-18-10 11:54 AM - Post#916592    

    In response to Mike Brines

  • Mike Brines Said:
How did you do the "aged bleach patina"?



Mike,
Here's a link explaining aging with Bleach from the forum archives:
Bleach Aging
My EV finish is similar to what you see on the longguns pictured in that thread.


 
Mike Brines 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5845
Mike Brines
11-18-10 05:30 PM - Post#916711    

    In response to Matt PA

Wow! I'm building an Edward Marshall Christians Springs rifle next in .58 and that sure would look good as a finish. But I'm going to sell it, and I have to do what I think is sellable.
That really looks good. Maybe I'll try it on my 32. You have to plug the barrel, right? Or did you pour it on, spray...

 
tg 
Cannon
Posts: 10776
11-19-10 12:03 PM - Post#916941    

    In response to Flash Pan Dan

As mentioned first determine what most leave out ...what is "early" what period is the gun from/ then you can more easily pic type of patchbox, lock, carving and such typicaly an English influenced gun would have less carving and a somewhat diminuitive cheekpiece than a Germanic one, most of the makers of "early Virginia guns' offer no time period or any suggestion of just what it is hat makes their guns "early" or "Virginian" the parts set from Chambers makes a nice gun that handles well and is supposed to be based on a gun from the southsome feel it coukld date to the F&I it does have the "early" traits that would put it pre Rev War, there seems to be a big interest in the early Virginia and lancasters but few builders offer any details as to the why,what, and how that makes them early.Do some research yourself from RCA on some of the southern guns thought to be pre rev war and you will likey stay away from the Siler lock, large multi-piece brass pboxes, brown barrels and other things that really fall into the 1780 and on time frame.

 
hanshi 
Cannon
Posts: 8007
hanshi
11-19-10 05:20 PM - Post#917046    

    In response to tg

That's a beautiful rifle, alright. The barrel finish is interesting and something I might consider. My EV barrel & lock has a "pewter" looking finish that looks good and ages as well.
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.


 
Flash Pan Dan 
45 Cal.
Posts: 808
11-20-10 05:24 AM - Post#917195    

    In response to Flash Pan Dan

Thank you all. I made my final changes to the EVR order.

Maple stock
Wooden patchbox
Some incise craving
beavertail final carved lock and opposing panels
carving around the tang
aged blue finish

Its getting a little harder waiting for this rifle now.

 
jbwilliams 
45 Cal.
Posts: 547
jbwilliams
11-22-10 09:46 AM - Post#917870    

    In response to Flash Pan Dan

You’re going to like that gun for sure. It’s hard waiting, but from everything I’ve heard, TVM has a pretty darn quick turnaround for as many guns as they put out.

 
Woodwright 
32 Cal.
Posts: 17
04-18-11 06:55 PM - Post#984138    

    In response to Matt PA

MattPA, if you have the time I would love to see some 360 degree close ups of your rifle. Just beautiful!

Woodwright

 
Basset 
40 Cal.
Posts: 295
04-19-11 05:29 PM - Post#984513    

    In response to flyfisher76544

Ordered mine today.....well my wife did it for me.

How did you pull THAT off?

 
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