Kodiak double rifle sights

I have a .50 cal. Kodiak Express double rifle that I bought from a guy who had taken it in trade and had never shot it himself. He could tell me nothing about what it liked in the way of powder, bullet/ball, patch, lube, etc. Also the rifle has two rear sights and I do not know if one sight is suppopsed to be for one barrel and the other sight for the other barrel or do you set one sight for something like 50 yards and the other for, say, 100 yards. :idunno: Is it one for each barrel or one for each distance? Since the two barrels do not shoot to the same POI at any distance out to 100 yards that I have tried using the modern scope that came mounted on it. :cursing: , I am thinking one sight is for one barrel and the other is for the other barrel. :hmm: Anyway, does anyone know how I am supposed to adjust my two rear sights?

Bill: If the rear sight is set into the rib in the middle of the barrels, then they are for different elevations. If they are set, each on one barrel, then you are suppose to set the one sight for its barrel, and the other sight for its barrel, and not confuse the two. Without seeing it in person, I can't help you with regulating the barrels. 35 yards would be what I would expect they MIGHT be regulated for, but that is just a guess. And, without factory information on loads, its only a poor guess at that.

Bill, if your rifle is like mine, and not one of the upgrades, then you have windage adjustable rear sights. The back sight will be for the right barrel and the other sight for the left. I adjusted both barrels to POI at 75 yards. I do not like having a two distance (50/100 yard) set up.

You need one target marked right and one left. After you haved zeroed in each barrel with the seperate targets, you can then use just one for both barrels.

The Pedersoli Web site has a PDF file with recommended loads for their black powder guns, including the Kodiak. That should get you close to what they were regulated for (doesn't give a brand of powder though).

Yeah, Dave, it sounds as if we have the same rifle. Mine has two rear leaf sights mounted on the center rib. They are adjustable for windage and elevation. Unfortunately, I don't see how I will be albe to use only one rear sight for both barrels since the left one shoots a bit high and the right one shoots a little low. by "little" I mean about 2 inches high for one and two inches low for the other at 50 yards. It has a modern scope mounted on it and I used it to aim for both barrels. Also, the right one is about 2 inches to the right of POA while the left one is about an equal amount to the left of POA. I know I can get them to both shoot to the same POA if, and only if, I use one sight for one barel and the other sight for the other barrel. At least, that is how it seems to me.

As I was sitting here cogitating on what I was writing, it suddenly occured to me that I hadn't ruled out the possibility that the scope may not be mounted so that the horizontal hair is absolutly in the same plane as the center of the bore on the barrels. If this was the case, it would cause the barrels to be canted slightly when the horizontal hair appeared to be level with the horizon. I have an idea for a way to align the horizontal hair with the center of the bores of the barrels. First, I would use a mason's level to draw a level line across a piece of paper mounted on a target board. Then mount the rifle on some sand bags so it doesn't move and place a torpedo level across the barrels to make sure that they are level. Then rotate the scope in the rings until the horizontal hair lines up with the line on the target board. Lock it down and then when I sight through the scope and hold the horizontal hair level, both bores will be in alignment with it.

This idea sounds good on paper. :hmm: What do you think, Dave? I really do want to get that scope off there but I want to use it for working up the most accurate load. Once I have the best load, the scope comes off and I will use open sights just as I do on all my other muzzleloaders.

And Paul V. come on in here and look over my idea and tell me what your thoughts are. Maybe if we all get our heads together, I'll end up with a shooter instead of a trader. :thumbsup:

Bill, each sight is dedicated to its own barrel. I use the rear most sight for the right barrel, canted to the right and the forward rear sight for the left barrel, canted to the left. Like I said, tune the right barrel first with that one sight. Once you have it pinned, start working on the other rear sight and tune in the left barrel. Use one target for each barrel and label them it so you can remember what's what. One sight will be folded at all times. Even though I say I have my rifle sighted for 75 yards, I started out first sighting in at 25 yards benched (just to find a tight group and powder charge) and then moved out to 50 yards, then to 75 yards if that is where you want the barrels to converge. After you can hit the left and right targets at the distance you decide upon, you can eventually use one target and hit the same spot with both barrels.

It will most likely take more than one shooting session and sound like a PITA, but you will find you have a very accurate rifle. All rifles are a little different. I use a .570 RB and a .024 denim patch, which is a very tight fit. However, pillow ticking works good too.

Try using about 90 gr. to start FFg and see how that does.

Remember, right barrel, rear sight (screwed over to the right). Left barrel, front sight (screwed to the left).

Bill---

Definitely if you intend to shoot this thing with the iron sights and NO scope, then get the scope off there now, it will not help you "regulate" your double barrel nor "sight you in" when it comes time to use the iron sights, so to speak. Plus it will not help you work up loads for when you shoot it with iron sights. The relationship of the eye with the rear sight and the from sight are essential for sighting in any gun but particularly vital with a double using two iron sights. The scope on there now does nothing to help you with that eye to sights relationship. Moreover, when sighting in a double, some people clamp her down in a bench set up, only to find she does NOT shoot to the same point of aim when holding it in your hand, (ie when hunting)... There is a famous book on "Shooting the Double Rifle" that explains why---better than anyone could on a thread of a internet forum---but trust me you should sight her in with the IRON sights (not the scope) and holding her as in the same field positions you would use for hunting if what you are looking to do is work up loads and get your rear sights adjusted properly for hunting with this double.

Zoar: A scope sight helps eliminate human sighting errors when working up loads for any barrel. Once the best load is found, then he can remove the scope and work with the iron sights to zero those loads, with those iron sights, and then attempt to regulate the barrels, if possible.


A scope is a very worth-while tool to use when working up accurate loads. I have a scope and mount to put on my Marlin .45-70, when I want to work up a load. But, once I have the powder, and bullet combination established, they come off, and I zero my iron sights with the new load. If I miss the target, or throw a bullet, I then know its ME, and Not the load at fault. :hatsoff:

paul, I hear what you are saying. However, with a double rifle AND two separate iron rear sights I just do not comprehend how developing a load for it using a single scope will somehow help when he goes to shoot the double rifle using two iron sights. And as I said I hear what you are saying aboiut the scope and using it for a rifle but it just seems to me that the same rationale while it may apply to a single barrel with a single sight it just does not apply to a double rifle and TWO separate IRON sights especially when he already had fathomed that the barrels are hitting to two very different points. One is 2 inches low AND two inches right and the second barrel is 2 inches high AND two inches left... at a mere 50 yards! That means a single point of aim (aka with a scope) developing loads will probably not help much, it seems to me, certainly not for hunting when he knows he will be using 2 different rear iron sights.

I mean, unless he is getting flyers and crazy sporadic results, which it doesn't seem like he is.. He indicated where the bullets are hitting with regard to a single POA with each barrel and they appear to be consistently OFF to a very certain amount. A known amount. What he is looking for (from what I read) is getting it so when he looks at one rear iron sight he can shoot the right barrel to POA, and when he looks at the other rear site it goes to POA. So I still do not fathom how a scope mounted on this double rifle will help him at this juncture?

When working up a load, all you are concerned about is group size. NOT ITS LOCATION. It can be a foot high, and foot left, but if its a good group, you can deal with it.

When you work up loads, for two barrels, you have two separate barrels, each requiring perhaps a different combination of bullets, or ball diameters, patch thickness, and choices of lube to shoot the smallest group SOMEPLACE. It really doesn't matter at that point where the group hits.

The Scope allows you to minimize human errors that open up group size.Period. Its done its job when you have the best load for each of the barrels.

Take it off, now.

NOW, adjust those two leaf sights, one for each barrel, to bring the groups over to some semblance of POA. Do this first at 10 yds. I find that I can get my windage and most elevation problems corrected, with both iron and scope sights, at this short distance. The Windage problems are the ones that drive me nuts at 50 yards and further If I am still having them. Elevation can be cured with the judicious use of a file, on most guns.

Now, whether its even possible to regulate those two barrels to shoot close to each other at ANY distance is an unknown. But, you get there by first working up accurate loads for each barrel, then zeroing the sights, as close as you can get them, and then regulate the barrels further to bring the groups to the same POI.

I learned all this years ago helping a friend attempt to get both barrels on his 12 ga. DB, sxs shotgun to shoot slugs to the same POI. After weeks of testing every brand of slug available, he found he could get reasonably close if he loaded one brand in one barrel, and another brand in the second barrel. Talk about unexpected results! :shocked2: :youcrazy: :blah: :idunno:

But he was happy, so he could take that gun deer hunting the next month. :surrender: :thumbsup:

I have not seen it done with Rifle barrels, but have seen it done to regulate DB shotgun barrels a lot.I am talking about bending barrels, or filing the muzzles on one side or another to change how the ball or bullet releases at the muzzle, to affect its POI. I can't think of any reason why this would not help regulate a MLing DB SxS rifle. :hmm:

Paul. Indeed. But boy I cringe at the idea of bending barrels and filing. Not any easier is the typical regulation of double rifles. After firing the load desired by the owner, the barrels would have to be actually readjusted with shims etc., and re-soldered and fire again, and again”¦. and again. The process is only stopped when the proper regulation of the barrels is achieved. I had double built and regulated for me in the 50-90 caliber and it took about 5 months to JUST REGULATE the barrels to POA at 75 yards. The gunsmith said his shoulder was beat up bad after that build. I wanted to shoot a 535 grain soft nosed Woodleigh at about 4800 foot pounds of energy. I wanted a Stopper Double Rifle: Stop just anything on the planet. It was tedious work to get POA on both barrels using the same cartridge. However with the 50 cal Kodiak muzzleloader I truly think the process is far easier and since he is getting groups already, because as stated Billnpatti is getting GROUPS with his double barrel now, and since he does have two separate rear sights to work with rather than one (as you find with modern cartridge double express rifles), it seems to em he can just work the rear sights at this juncture. The other bit of tweeking of course is playing with the powder amounts. In my case it was determined the double rifle needed 74.2 grains of Alliant Powder Reloder 15 to get both barrels hitting at POA at 75 yards. 76 grains or 72 grains did not achieve the same results. They were not that far off but still they were off. I would be curious to know, Billnpatti, have you tried 90 grains or 80 grains or 70 grains to see where they hit? Also what distance(s) do you want your double barrel set for... because with those two rear sights you could actually, say, have your right barrel set up for 60 yards and your left barrel set for 40 yards, if you wanted.

Zoar, this rifle is a recent aquisition and "I have not yet begun to fight." At this time, I have used only 50 grains of Goex fffG powder. I have tried only three different projectiles and have not yet settled on which one is the more accurate. I still have two that I want to try. Once I have a projectile selected, I will turn to selecting the grade of powder then the powder charge, patch thickness and lube. Each in it's own turn just as Dutch Schultz recommends. I'll have to re-read his methodology to be sure that I have the proper order for selecting the various components.

I understand and agree with Paul V. on the use of the scope in the development of the most accurate load. Once that is determined, I will remove the scope and use the leaf sights to regulate the barrels. Since I bought the gun to do some Texas boar hunting, I plan to regulate the barrels at 50 yards. Some may suggest 35 yards as being a better choice but I have seen those Texas boars and I don't want to even think about getting that close to one that is still breathing.

Thanks for your suggestions and insight.

Bill

Billnpatti said:

Zoar, this rifle is a recent aquisition and "I have not yet begun to fight." At this time, I have used only 50 grains of Goex fffG powder. I have tried only three different projectiles and have not yet settled on which one is the more accurate. I still have two that I want to try. Once I have a projectile selected, I will turn to selecting the grade of powder then the powder charge, patch thickness and lube. Each in it's own turn just as Dutch Schultz recommends. I'll have to re-read his methodology to be sure that I have the proper order for selecting the various components.

I understand and agree with Paul V. on the use of the scope in the development of the most accurate load. Once that is determined, I will remove the scope and use the leaf sights to regulate the barrels. Since I bought the gun to do some Texas boar hunting, I plan to regulate the barrels at 50 yards. Some may suggest 35 yards as being a better choice but I have seen those Texas boars and I don't want to even think about getting that close to one that is still breathing.

Thanks for your suggestions and insight.

Bill

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Bill,
I forget what caliber you have, but 50 gr. is kind of light. If your oinkers are the same as Arkansas Razorbacks (European) hogs. I wouldn't want to mess with them either.

Myself, I would still just ditch the scope and go with sighting in the iron sights as I described. I believe that a PRB is all you need. If you want a conical, I suggest the improved Minie, but it's shoulder bruising time. The REAL was too tight in my rifle and took a mallet to pound it down. Those Kodiak's can take a hefty charge.

flintlock---sound reasoning. The patched round ball is probably the best (ie most reasonable) medicine. I minnie may sound good but wow, get your anti-shoulder-brusier meds out because at the levels of powder needed for pig hunting, I don't know which side of this gun I'd want to be on... when using a minie! hahaha

Also, Billnpatti I guess I misread your first post where you indicated the right barrel was shooting two inches low and right etc etc... because I read it that you had arrived at a load and that is how your double gun was printing. Indeed you have some work to do yet. But I still think a scope on a double to do "see where she prints work" will result in needing to REDO it all when you take the scope off and you start to "sight in your existing two iron sights on this double.

Here is a strong recommendation for a book: "Shooting the British Double Rifle: A Modern Guide for Load Development and Use" --A Book by Graeme Wright... This has for me been the best book to help me understand the differences between a DOUBLE RIFLE and all other other rifles. Indeed yours is a muzzleloader HOWEVER change the cartridge to your powder/wad/projectile load and truly everything else applies. Sighting in a double is simply not the same as sighting in a rifle and Grahaems book is spot on. I can personally attest because BEFORE I got the book I sighted a double in using the typical single rifle way and then when I shot it for the first time (in a hunting pose) not a bench, the bullets printed in a vastly different place form Point Of Aim. I used his method and wallah, my double printed the same place while developing loads just as they did in field/hunting poses and I know you want this double for hunting, which is what my doubles are used for too.

Certainly for a double 50 cal for hunting pigs I would not stay in that low powder charge arena. I know you just acquired the gun and are just seeing how she works and playing around etc, however to begin work on developing a load and sighting it in in any serious way for hunting pigs you need to be in the 90-100 grain black powder range. And until you start that you really do not know where the gun will print for what you intend to do with it (hunting) thus you don't know where to set your sights for that 50 yard "regulation" distance as you said you were thinking of verses 35 yards. Shooting double rifles is quite a sport in itself... see this link for RULES in a typical double rifle contest-- http://www.biggamerifleclub.com.au/rules.htm and they have included BLACKPOWDER!

Anyway, I have found it really is fun to play around with developing loads and getting different prints using all the various variables. I have a 12 bore smoothie double that I can get to print clover leafs at 50 yards and depending on the powder amount I can get the barrels to print low or high, whichever I choose and not change the sights at all!

Billnpatti--Also there is alot of valuable info on regulating a double barrel muzzleloader here--- http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=158526&an=0&page=0#Post158526

DarylS is extremely knowledgeable and I would rely on his seasoned advice. He shoots big game with round balls in his muzzleloader Kodiak and can give you a boost up in the knowledge department for shooting a Kodiak double for hunting!

Thanks, Zoar, those articles were some interesting reading. I found it very informative when I read about increasing the powder charge to uncross the trajectories. I had planned to try some T/C Maxiballs next but after reading those articles and listening to your advice, I will try some PBRs with 80 to 100 grains of ffG Goex. Not that I think Goex is the absolute best choice but it is the only black powder that I have on hand. If it doesn't rain any more and I can get down the road to the range, I will give those loads a try this weekend. This is exciting and I am learning a lot from everyone. I'm 69 years old and have been shooting muzzleloaders for over 40 years and I still learn new stuff everytime I stop and listen to what others have to say. Just goes to show that you are never too old to learn new stuff. :thumbsup:

Billnpatti---I really like double rifles in both muzzleloader and cartridge variety so I enjoy the conversation and the challenge and yes each one presents their own challenge to regulate especially when you want a hunting charge for something like pigs, dangerous game.... by the way how big are these pigs you intend to hunt with your Kodiak? And are they wild bore or semi-tamed beasts at a paid-for-hunting farm? That will have some bearing on how hard hitting your load needs to be. For dangerous game I prefer being up in the high end of muzzle energy range (above 3800 pounds)!

I have not yet been to this particualar farm to see the hogs. It is my understanding that they are a mixture of wild Russian boars, ferral hogs and boar/hog crosses. From what I hear, they range from little pigs of 100 pounds to big bruisers of well over 400 pounds. I have seem pictures of one that my son-in-law shot, it was on his mother's land, and that hog had some mighty fierce looking tusks and was about 350 pounds. She is want me to come kill them because they are tearing up her yard. She lives on a farm in north east Texas and the wild hogs will actually come right up into her yard and root up her lawn, her garden and her flowers. She wants them dead and wants me to come take care of the job. They are wild and they are not penned up but I'm not going to have to go far to find them. I may even be able to sit on the front swing with a Coke and shoot them from the front porch. Yeah, I know, really rough hunting but heck, I'm 69 years old. I don't need much rougher hunting than that. :haha:

Billnpatti-- that is still hazardous duty! a little porch unless the big 300 + pound bore cannot access it is not much protection if you wing the thing! I'd want a reliable and powerful load with good penetration.

Billnpatti,

I have tried to keep it simple so that I can remember witch sight to the correct barrel. :grin:

So the:

Rear sight is to the Rear trigger