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Login Name Post: TC Renegade twist rate        (Topic#231619)
happyhunter 
36 Cal.
Posts: 57
03-06-09 10:03 AM - Post#690070    


I have a 50 cal Renegade flinter. I always thought all Renegades had 1 in 28" twist. I shoot patched round ball. From what I understand this is not the optimal twist for PRB. It is quite accurate at 50 yds (2 to 3 inch groups) but pretty poor at 100 (more like 12 inch groups). I concluded I needed 1 in 66" twist.

Yesterday I saw a 54 Renegade at the local shop. Looking down the bore it had about 1/2 twist over the length of the barrel. Gee, that would mean it is about 1 in 66" twist. I got all excited and had the shopowner put it back for me.

I went home and looked at my 50. It too had about 1/2 twist in the barrel. So, I guess it is the proper twist for the PRB.

So my questions:
Am I looking at the rifling and calculating the twist properly?
Did TC make Renegades with 1 in 66 twist?
Does the 66" twist really work better than 28" twist for PRB?
Why am I not getting better accuracy at 100 yds?
If both these flinters are 66" twist then would the 54 be anymore accurate than the 50 I already have??

Thanks!!

 
Mad Professor 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1292
03-06-09 10:14 AM - Post#690077    

    In response to happyhunter

Most likely 1-48 twist, 1-66 RB barrels were special order.



 
happyhunter 
36 Cal.
Posts: 57
03-06-09 10:19 AM - Post#690080    

    In response to Mad Professor

I think I would have a hard time telling 48" from 66" twist. When I said 28" twist in my post I think I meant 48" twist, I think????

 
Scattershot 
40 Cal.
Posts: 449
03-06-09 10:32 AM - Post#690088    

    In response to happyhunter

I think all T/C Hawkens and Renegades were 1:48". it was sort of a do anything twist that worked well for bullets and PRB, within limits.

Interestingly, I read somewhere that the original Hawken plains rifles were a 1:48 twist for all calibers, because that rifling machine was what they had available.

 
happyhunter 
36 Cal.
Posts: 57
03-06-09 10:51 AM - Post#690094    

    In response to Scattershot

Yeah I had my twists rates confused. I meant 48 when I stated 28.

How much better is the 66" for PRB compared to 48"??

Thanks!!

 
Plink 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4011
Plink
03-06-09 11:13 AM - Post#690103    

    In response to happyhunter

  • happyhunter Said:
Yeah I had my twists rates confused. I meant 48 when I stated 28.

How much better is the 66" for PRB compared to 48"??

Thanks!!



1:66 is less picky about powder charge and you can generally drive a ball a bit hotter without blowing the group. A 1:48 can shoot a ball quite well though, so it really depends on what you want the gun to do. For hunting, a 1:48 is a good compromise. For best groups, a 1:66 might shoot a little better. I know I can shoot tighter groups at 100 yards with any of my 1:66 guns than I can with any of my 1:48 guns, and I have about an equal number of both.


 
CoyoteJoe 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4994
CoyoteJoe
03-06-09 11:23 AM - Post#690110    

    In response to happyhunter

Twist gets a lot of attention and most people will probably say 66" is better than 48" for roundballs. But twist is just one eliment, groove depth also is a big factor as well as the overall quality of the barrel. T/C's are shallow groove barrels, generally having a groove depth of .005", whereas most true roundball barrels have grooves of .010-.015" deep to better hold the patch.
I have a .50 caliber renegade with the 48" twist and a .50 caliber Pensylvania hunter with the 66" twist. Both are shallow grooves and one shoots no better than the other, which is to say not really great.

 
Musketman 
Passed On
Posts: 10652
03-06-09 11:41 AM - Post#690119    

    In response to happyhunter

  • happyhunter Said:
I think I would have a hard time telling 48" from 66" twist. When I said 28" twist in my post I think I meant 48" twist, I think????



There is an easy way to tell for yourself, all you need is a tight cleaning patch-jag combo, a tape measurer, some masking tape and a marker or pen.

Run the cleaning patch down the barrel to the bottom and wrap the ramrod with masking tape flush with the muzzle, then mark the taped ramrod at the 12:00 position with the pen.

Slowly pull the ramrod out of the barrel, noting the mark as it spins, run it to the 6:00 position of the barrel.

Then measure the length of the ramrod from tape to muzzle and times it by two. (2) This will give you a rough rate of twist.

The other way is to pull the marked ramrod out of the barrel until it reaches the 9:00 position, then measure and times the results by four. (4) This works well on shorter barrels.


 
Anonymous 
03-06-09 11:54 AM - Post#690126    

    In response to Musketman

  • Musketman Said:
There is an easy way to tell for yourself, all you need is a tight cleaning patch-jag combo, a tape measurer, some masking tape and a marker or pen.

Run the cleaning patch down the barrel to the bottom and wrap the ramrod with masking tape flush with the muzzle, then mark the taped ramrod at the 12:00 position with the pen.

Slowly pull the ramrod out of the barrel, noting the mark as it spins, run it to the 6:00 position of the barrel.

Then measure the length of the ramrod from tape to muzzle and times it by two. (2) This will give you a rough rate of twist.



Excellent advice.

So, how many degrees difference is there in the spin of the ball when comparing a 48 to a 66 twist, of the same barrel length? A couple degrees more or less rotation? Or is it significantly more?

 
Musketman 
Passed On
Posts: 10652
03-06-09 12:05 PM - Post#690130    

    In response to Wolfen

  • Carl Davis Said:


Excellent advice.

So, how many degrees difference is there in the spin of the ball when comparing a 48 to a 66 twist, of the same barrel length? A couple degrees more or less rotation? Or is it significantly more?



Running them both 90 degree from top dead center, the degrees will stay the same because the rifling is twisting the patch 1/4 a turn. However, the length of exposed ramrod will be different because the rate of twist is different on both barrels you quoted.

The 1:66 will show more ramrod because it will take more distance to turn the patched jag one quarter of a turn, should be something like 16 1/2 inches length for 1/4th turn from TDC.

The 1:48 twist will have less travailing time to make that one quarter of a turn, so the ramrod should measure 12 inches for the same rotation.

Times these lengths by 4 to get the full rate of twist.

As for the barrel's length, the rate of twist doesn't change because of barrel length, a 48 inch barrel with a 1:48 twist will spin the ball one time for it's length.

A 24 inch barrel with a 1:48 twist will spin the ball at the same rate of the longer barrel, it's just holding it for half the length.


 
Stumpkiller 
Moderator
Posts: 17175
Stumpkiller
03-06-09 12:49 PM - Post#690144    

    In response to Wolfen

  • Carl Davis Said:


So, how many degrees difference is there in the spin of the ball when comparing a 48 to a 66 twist, of the same barrel length? A couple degrees more or less rotation? Or is it significantly more?



The 1:48" puts 37-1/2% more spin on the projectile than the 1:66" twist. 180º turn for the 1:66" in a 33 inch barrel vs. 247-1/2º turn for the 1:48" twist in the same 33" barrel length. So that is 67-1/2º, whatever that tells you.

Lets say the muzzle velocity is 1,600 fps. The 1:48" projectile leaves the muzzle doing 24,000 rpm, while the 1:66" projectile is clocking 17,400 rpm. Significant to be sure.

But the results downrange on the target are what matter. The proper twist is the one that stabilizes your projectile choice.
"Don't take life too serious - it ain't nohow permanent."


 
Anonymous 
03-06-09 01:03 PM - Post#690148    

    In response to Stumpkiller

  • Stumpkiller Said:
  • Carl Davis Said:
So, how many degrees difference is there in the spin of the ball when comparing a 48 to a 66 twist, of the same barrel length? A couple degrees more or less rotation? Or is it significantly more?



The 1:48" puts 37-1/2% more spin on the projectile than the 1:66" twist. 180º turn for the 1:66" in a 33 inch barrel vs. 247-1/2º turn for the 1:48" twist in the same 33" barrel length. So that is 67-1/2º, whatever that tells you.



It tells me that there's enough spin difference that it may effect accuracy. Thanks.

 
Boar-dilly 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1867
Boar-dilly
03-06-09 02:53 PM - Post#690187    

    In response to happyhunter

Where the 1-66 will out do the 1-48 is not so much the twist rate but the 1-66 will have deeper cut riflings then the stock 1-48. It will grip the ball better. The stock 1-48 were shallow rifled to shoot the maxis. They won't seal in deep cut riflings. Mine would shoot RB with low powder charges, like 45grs in .54. I started out with a TC Hawken .54. Dilly

 
Robert58 
45 Cal.
Posts: 553
Robert58
03-06-09 06:13 PM - Post#690257    

    In response to happyhunter

If you put two marks on your ramrod exactly 24" apart then run your ramrod down your barrel with a tight patch to the second mark when you pull it out to the first mark if it is 1 in 48 your ramrod will turn exactly 1/2 revolution. If it is 1 in 66 it will turn about 1/3 revolution. All 1 in 66 barrels should have deep rifleing. Here is T/C's Twist chart.

http://www.tcarms.com/firearms/chart_muzzleloaders.php

Robert
NRA Life Member / TSRA Life Member


 
happyhunter 
36 Cal.
Posts: 57
03-06-09 07:26 PM - Post#690298    

    In response to Robert58

Thanks for that chart. The 54s were always 48 inch twist. Settles that.



 
Roundball 
Cannon
Posts: 22964
Roundball
03-06-09 07:36 PM - Post#690302    

    In response to happyhunter

  • happyhunter Said:

The 54s were always 48 inch twist.




Their "standard" barrels were always 1:48"...
Roundball's ML Formula:
"Whompability...Across The Fields and In The Woods"


 
gordy 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1104
03-07-09 01:49 AM - Post#690396    

    In response to happyhunter

Heres a factor that failed to surface in this discussion, QLA (quick loading accuracy) The QLA system was desaigned for the use of conical projectiles. If you look the muzzle of your Renegade you'll note that ther is about 2 " at the muzzle that has the lands reduced to near even with the grove dia.
this was done to allow the conical to be pushed into the bore with a minium of force (thumb preasure) This area of reduced lands assured the conical would be in line with the bore as it was shoved downbore with the loading rod.Its like a false muzzle on a slug gun. Now the idea is sound and if you shoot conicals is a great help in starting the bullet downbore.
Now if we are dedicated patched round ball shooters than this is not the case.I can put 60to65 grs of 2f under thprb and it will hold fairly good groups, but put70grs. and the group opens up like a shot charge. I think that when the powder charge and preasure goes up it tends to blow by the patch when it gets to the area of the QLA. This tends to de-stablize the ball and it exits the muzzle at erratic angles.I no longer have this problem with mine as it is now a smoothbore and shoots as good a group as any good smooth bore.it also does quite well with shot loads. I don't think the 1/48 twist has anything to do with the erratic grouping when using loads of over 65grs.Most of the other imported 50=54 cal.guns use the 1/48 twist with great results.

 
Mad Professor 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1292
03-07-09 02:04 PM - Post#690656    

    In response to CoyoteJoe

My TC 1-66 barrels are marked so (eg. round ball twist- 1-66), AND they have much deeper rifling than the 1-48 barrels.

I'll mike one and report back.....

 
CoyoteJoe 
70 Cal.
Posts: 4994
CoyoteJoe
03-08-09 09:12 AM - Post#691016    

    In response to Mad Professor

I think that over the years T/C has used different tooling and processes in their barrel making. I've often heard mention of T/C barrels with 66" twist and "deep cut rifling" but I've never seen one. My own T/C 66" twist barrel, a late vintage "Pennsylvania Hunter", has the same shallow grooves as my T/C 48" twist barrel, .500" bore diameter, .510" groove diameter.

 
Mad Professor 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1292
03-08-09 02:50 PM - Post#691173    

    In response to CoyoteJoe

I just checked a 54 cal 1-66 percussion renegade barrel, grooves are 0.012" (0.540 lands, 0.565 grooves) I can't imagine a flinter being different

Edited by Mad Professor on 03-08-09 02:52 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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