LOTM "Killdeer" Rifle

At long last actual pics of the LOTM "Killdeer" rifle, have been unearthed. I made contact with a "Killdeer" owner who had his built by Bill Rooks. He graciously sent me these photos of his rifle to use for my own "Killdeer" rifle project that Oldarmy is building for me.
Thought I'd share these with all of you. Photos courtesy of Mike Rogers.

Thanks, I always wanted to see one with clarity.

Heh kinda wish I hadn't now, sorta ruins the whole movie now. :shocked2: I sure hope your gun comes out looking better than that one.

:haha:

Yeah, there'll be some changes allright. I had already asked Mike (oldarmy) to "customize" it awhile back. The stock will be more of an early Lehigh style. The carving will be nicer, and the wood a higher grade and the stain and finish will be a LOT nicer too. I prefer a darker red/brown finish myself compared to the lighter color you see here. I also asked Mike to put some wire inlays on it too. It'll be BASED on the "Killdeer". But "nicer".
Still, for those who have never seen the "Killdeer" up close, here you are. :wink:

Had a little more conversation with the owner of this rifle. Seems this may not be exactly the best example of the Killdeer rifle.
Not trying to bad mouth the builder.But for starters, the barrel is 44' on this rifle and not 48' like the movie rifle. There are some other things that he mentioned,I wont go into that, but this is a close replica of the Killdeer. So at least we get to see some details we wouldnt have ever seen.
Like I said before though, mine will also be "based" on the "Killdeer", but it'll be more.... "custom".

I think I'd base my rifle on a Lehigh gun and forget that movie gun. The movie gun is based on pure fantasy.

Mike Brooks said:

I think I'd base my rifle on a Lehigh gun and forget that movie gun. The movie gun is based on pure fantasy.

Click to expand...

:haha:
LOL, if I had a dime for every time I've heard someone tell me that........
Basically, the rifle that oldarmy is building me IS A LEHIGH. In truth, the only relation between the "Killdeer" and mine will be the length of the gun,caliber, steel furniture, and carvings. Sometimes, "a man wants what a man wants"
"To each his own, as they say". :wink:

I wonder why no one ever wrote about a gun named, "Killelk" or "Killgophers"?

Maybe I'll name my next one, "Killsumthin". :grin:

Actually, I was thinking of namin' mine "Stringfellow".
Of course, "Killinmywallet" would be more accurate. :rotf:

Jim,
the custom 51" swamped barrel and presentation grade maple will help greatly. :grin:
The carving is nice..It just looks very FAT.
Your choice of furniture has been a source of LONG E-MAILS. :grin:
Being,I am not that familiar with the lehigh style.
Preferring the Lancaster and southern styles myself.
I will have to rely on the help of my friend Geoff Jones.
He loves the lehigh style. He tells me they are built a little different then the other major schools.

oldarmy, can you elaborate on some of those special differences? I'd be interested in knowing.

Let me jump in here and try to help...

Many of those differences between Lehighs and other schools make them particularly hard to build CORRECTLY. Mike Brooks has shared with me that he won't even attempt one for this reason. The true masters of this style are Eric Kettenburg and Allen Martin. Go to their respective websites and check them out.

Differences are...

The buttplate is different... the tang part is inlet INTO the top of the buttstock instead of on top of it. So the tang part is barely visible at all when viewing from the side.

Besides having a curved lower AND upper buttstock, there is a distict step up in the wrist from the rear of the trigger guard to the lock panel area. This leaves very little room for the lock which sits quite high. Often the top of the RR channel actually protrudes into the barrel channel because there is so little space at the breech.

Because the lock sets so high, the touchhole is not centered on the barrel flat, but almost at the top of the flat.

The forearm and forestock are very thin exposing 3/4 or more of the barrel sideflat instead of 1/2. The rr groove is almost non existent exposing almost all of the RR.

The forestock is often quite triangular instead of rounded, the rr channel usually runs all the way to the end of the stock instead of blending into a rounded nosecap, with the nosecap wrapping around the stock... but not having a brass front plate... just exposed wood.

Oh yeah, I forgot, because the wrist is SO slim and is stepped... it becomes quite egg shapped, being wider than it is tall.

I'm sure I've forgotten something. Remember there are exceptions to everything... but these are the general characteristics when you consider some of the better known Lehigh masters... the Moll family, H. Rupp, P. Neihart.

If you need pics to illustrate any of these characteristics LMK. I've got a good collection of Lehigh pics. PM me and I'll e-mail them to you.

Hope this helps, geoff

oldarmy said:

Your choice of furniture has been a source of LONG E-MAILS. :grin:

Click to expand...

:haha: :haha: :haha: I'm sure my choice of rifle ALSO was the source of a LOT of e-mails as well.

I hadnt realized what I had been asking when I asked you to make this rifle for me Mike.
All I figured was to have you make a longer version of this gun.





I never realized how intricate the Lehigh rifle really is to build.
I'm grateful to you for being so willing to make it for me despite the difficulties. My hats off to you and Geoff for taking on this project for me. My sincerest thanks to you both!
:bow: :bow: :bow:
Nice to finally meet ya Geoff. :v

Geoff,
You have been a member since 05 and yet less then 100 posts :hmm:
You need to quit working so hard making a living and start building more guns. :grin:
You are wasting your valuable talent on the job.
You should be working with me. I need all the help I can get.
When I hit the power ball. We are going to open up a shop. :thumbsup:
Well, I have all the parts on order for LOTM.
It is going to be a "fantasy rifle" with the Steel Bevins furniture.
But with help, it should/will turn out fine.
Mike

oldarmy said:

It is going to be a "fantasy rifle" with the Steel Bevins furniture.
But with help, it should/will turn out fine.
Mike

Click to expand...

Yup. It's a fantasy rifle allright.
But it'll be MY fantasy rifle. :grin:

The project is in GOOD hands. :bow: :hatsoff:

Jimmie and Mike,

Jimmie... nice to meet you as well...

Mike... What were the specs on the barrel from Ed? I remember it's 51 inches, what caliber and what profile? B? C?

Remember that needs a piece of wood at least 65 inches long...

What pull for Jimmie? How much drop? Any cast off?
geoff

Hi Geoff.

I can help with some of that. The barrel is 51 inches long, .50 cal. swamped with 1 inch at the breech going to 3/4 at the middle and 13/16 of an inch at the muzzle. 1:66 twist with round bottom rifling. My LOP is about 13 1/2 - 14 inches. I dont know about the rest of the info you asked for. Sorry.

Hey Mike, one more and he hits 100 posts.:haha:

Geoff, thanks, will do. :thumbsup:

Jim,
Drop means the drop in inches from the breech to the heel.
I will find out from the stock maker.
Cast off is a slight angle to the right.
Which makes the rifle easier to mount.
Geoff,
Should this style have more/some of both?
The stock maker said he had a "stash" of extra long blanks :grin:

To measure Drop, use a straight edge( ruler) on top of the barrel flat and extend the edge out over the length of the buttstock. There is a drop at comb, which is measured from that extended line on the bottom of the straight edge, to the top of the comb at it forward most point, where the comb drops down to the wrist of the stock, and then the Drop at Heel. Heel is the top back of the buttstock behind the comb. Its as far back from the barrel as you can get.

Think of the buttstock as a human foot when the stock is stood on the buttplate. The part of the butt that is at the bottom of the stock, that angles upward to the trigger, is the " Toe". The part of the butt at the top is the "Heel", just like a human foot.

If you are making a gun that will be shot off-hand, the drop at heel needs to be deep enough to allow your eye to easily align with the sights on your barrel. The height of the comb also deals with this concern. Since your eye is most likely to be fairly close to the front of the comb, the distance or " drop at comb" should be set so that you eye centers the rear sight without having to lift your head up off the stock, or pull the stock into your face to get down close enough to the stock so that you can see the sights at all. I want off-hand shooting with iron sights to determine these dimensions so that your head is held erect, against the side of the stock( Cast-off, or Cast-on[for lefties], and with your eye focusing through the center of your eye, rather than looking out of the top of your orbit. This often requires a Drop-At-Heel of 4" or more, on tall shooters. Anything shorter, and the shooter has to " Crawl the stock" and look out from under his eyebrows to see his sights. That produces eye fatigue quickly, and is not conducive to good shooting.

The amount of (down)Pitch given the stock can sometimes help fit a stock to a shooter with a long neck, or with wide shoulders, where making the stock with a lot of Drop at heel makes for an uncomfortable amount of felt recoil.