sick of that jackass who writes for NMLRA

Just threw my latest issue of muzzleblast in the woodstove. :bull:
Al who ever he is who writes about hunting usally slanted towards inlines just slamed idaho for their ruling on the muzzleloading season stating "it's very contraversal"
Poor bastard can't go to Idaho with his scoped Knight and use sabots,shotgun primers, and pyrodex pellets WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
saying I'm now limited to 100 yrd shots in that state
:bull:
I'm done with muzzleblast and the NMLRA.
The only good thing about that mag is John Curry and the Bevel Bros.
Even their legislative notes are usally a month or two off the back.
:surrender:

I am ususlly pretty quick to point out the falicy of dumping on ANY other type of hunting be it Bow hunters dumping on ML'ers or Centerfire hunters dumping on bow hunters etc, etc, etc.
I find it UNACCEPTABLE when "leaders" or published personalities critisize others as ALL of this just fules the Anti's cause towards total eradication of the sport. SHAME on these people/that publication for dumping on Idaho instead of enthusiastically supporting the sport! :cursing: :cursing: :cursing: :cursing:

I agree 100 percent

Well, I made a post a while back criticizing a TV personality who was strongly encouraging the NMLRA into inlines as his main sponsor was Knight-I believe.

It was promptly deleted.

He was doing his best to turn the Friendship event into a modern rifle shoot, and poke fun at the traditional guys. It seems that the Wednesday evening shows who are sponsored by the modern rifle people are bent on changing the face of history.

I dropped my membership to that bunch a long time ago. Tiz the face of things to come.

The question that still stands unanswered is why modernize the ML sport to the point of being on equal footing with many centerfire guns I cannot grasp the mindset,it is like supposedly wanting to join a vintage car club but wanting to be allowed to use a brand new auto with all the bells and whistles because it is more familiar, comfortable, and easier to drive :youcrazy:

tg n all the rest of ya, THINK ABOUT IT, it's all about MONEY plain n simple, the new modern corporate sponsered shooters are gonna push what will sell. They don't give a rats ass about history, the mystique of ther gun, or anything else, they care about the "profit margin" period, nothing more nothing less. Traditional style guns such as those we admire n love to shoot will only fill a small niche in the profit margin. Newer, more tech advanced style weapons, ease of shooting, longer range shots, ease of cleaning,cost,availability of propellents, types of bullets. etc all get the average hunters attention and eventually his wallet opens up n the makers of said goods make a sale. It's just like fishing equipment, most lures are not really made to catch fish but to catch fishermen. like the old saying, ya want the reason? follow the money, bottom line will be the money-period. at least in my humble opinion, YMHS Birdman

tg said:

The question that still stands unanswered is why modernize the ML sport to the point of being on equal footing with many centerfire guns I cannot grasp the mindset,it is like supposedly wanting to join a vintage car club but wanting to be allowed to use a brand new auto with all the bells and whistles because it is more familiar, comfortable, and easier to drive :youcrazy:

Click to expand...

Naw....There is a reason Vanilla is not the ONLy flavor of ice cream on the market. Market economics LAWS states that people will make what people want to buy; NOT the other way around.
Its no differant then when the bow season allowed the first compound and the long bow society and the recurve people got all bent about "traditions" and "PC". BUT the sport went nuts and there are MORE opportunities in that arena today then ever before AND.......Those that wish can still use their long bows: The compound does NOT or should NOT alter the season for THAT particular individual.
In my opinion YOU shoot what YOU wish and THAT is ALL that is important. The REAL shame is that some states dont have enough deer to have seasons for all (EVERY type of hunter) Now here in Oregon our Waste andf Fraud Dept is more interested in preserving the snail darter instead of increasing game so we are limited in numbers and thus NEED to limit hunters and so keeping it "primitive" is a sucessfull way to accomplish that and it works. BUT some states as I understand it have enough deer for multiple tags per person; IF there are plenty of game why NOT let people harvset as they wish thus swelling the ranks of the PRO-hunters?

"; IF there are plenty of game why NOT let people harvset as they wish thus swelling the ranks of the PRO-hunters?'

Following that line of thought one should be able to hunt geese with a .222 or dynamite bass in the local pond, or use a rifle in bow season the arrow spins and some think this is what lead to rifleing in guns so they should be considered the same thing. I agree that one should be able to use the new ML's and all the bullets and modern sights that go with them....in the general season or a modern ML season not in a ML season as they were originaly envisioned, all tools are welcome and the more the merrier but lets try to keep the sguare pegs out of the round holes. it is not such a complicated or unreasonable way to approach this so the traditional guns are not lost in the grouping of anything that loads from the front, if someone cannot grasp that thought then they have little actual concept of what the whole rebirth of ML hunting was all about, and or are simple unable to figure out and effectively make use of the traditional gear, if I were that mentaly challenged I would just go back to centerfires rather than try to redesign one of the simplest types of guns ever made, that would be embarrasing.. :redface:

:haha: telling it like it is there ain't ya ol' man :thumbsup:

The muzzleloading press seems to be full of jackasses. Whole lot of guys writing that get a whole lot of money from the inline manufacturers and sabot and pellet powder companies. They're looking after their own pocket books, that's all. Can't really blame them, because if that kind of money were staring me in the face I'm pretty sure I would do the very same thing.

I mean, let's face it; there's a whole lot of guys who's only wish is to take advantage of the extra season. They don't give a tinker's damn about tradition or the challenge of the hunt, they want another shot at a trophy buck. They want something as close as possible to their centerfire rifles, and that means a modern inline with sabots, pellet powder, a scope, and 209 ignition.

There's a lot of money to be made selling these guys what they want. They'll pay $30 a pound for pellet powder. A dollar a piece for sabot bullets. That's better business than a $12 can of Goex and a $20 roundball mold.

Bottom line is, the press will follow the money.

tg said:

"; IF there are plenty of game why NOT let people harvset as they wish thus swelling the ranks of the PRO-hunters?'

Following that line of thought one should be able to hunt geese with a .222 or dynamite bass in the local pond, or use a rifle in bow season the arrow spins and some think this is what lead to rifleing in guns so they should be considered the same thing. I agree that one should be able to use the new ML's and all the bullets and modern sights that go with them....in the general season or a modern ML season not in a ML season as they were originaly envisioned, all tools are welcome and the more the merrier but lets try to keep the sguare pegs out of the round holes. it is not such a complicated or unreasonable way to approach this so the traditional guns are not lost in the grouping of anything that loads from the front, if someone cannot grasp that thought then they have little actual concept of what the whole rebirth of ML hunting was all about, and or are simple unable to figure out and effectively make use of the traditional gear, if I were that mentaly challenged I would just go back to centerfires rather than try to redesign one of the simplest types of guns ever made, that would be embarrasing.. :redface:

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TG, my friend, prejiduce is most unbecoming. Even more so then grossly overexagerating an analogy to try and force a personal point of view.
BUT at least I know where you stand; PRB in a sidelock or nuthin! :hmm:

"BUT at least I know where you stand; PRB in a sidelock or nuthin'

Yes, many people call it traditional MLing it is a very interesting and enjoyable sport particularly when hunting, quite often when those who use modern gear try the traditional way they don't go back.

I'm in favor of keeping 'primitive weapons' season primitive. :thumbsup:

"I'm in favor of keeping 'primitive weapons' season primitive."

I would agree but we must first have a primitive season to "keep primitive" most ML seasons have evolved the other way as many choose the easy way rather than learn how to use the traditional gear,may be in time things will swing the other way, I suspect that when the modern ML manufactures come up with one that has a straight neck cartrige with primer that loads from the front but can be removed from the rear with a bolt lock, the game depts may start to think that there are two different type of guns and gear here and the modern stuff is really a lot more apt to fit into the regular season than into any "special" season, as of now many of the bullet sight combos used on traditional "styled" MLs results in what is pretty much a 45/70 or 50/110 that minus the cartridge, I suppose the dollar will talk and the mainstream mags will promote the modern bullets/sights and other gear and ignore or falsely whitewash the traditional gear with a coat of inaccurate info as to effectiveness of the traditional PRB and fixed sights, Hell there are many right here who do the latter to one degree or another, it is sad that the talking heads who are aimed at the general public can undermine the traditional gear but really a bad sign when it happens on a supposedly traditionaly oriented ML forum.I guess it is to be expected when many just don't have a good handle on where traditional gear ends and the modern stuff begins though I often wonder how much some really care about knowing.

True enough.

Back in the good ole days when ML seasons were begun, the only guns out there where the Traditional type. Here in Alaska we have so called ML hunts. In order to get these hunts in the first place we presented the fact that muzzleloaders were short range (100 yards Max) and had limited power yet were capable of harvesting any big game within there limitations.
It took many years to convince the State Game Board to set up special hunts. We finnaly got a few hunts, it started on the military bases and that was it for several years, this program expanded slightly as time went on. We were able to keep hunting in an area that had become more urban by proposing it be limited to ML and shotguns, otherwise it would be a total ban on hunting. Since then we have tried to get additional ML hunts in various areas. The problem is most of the ML areas have limited access ie Military Bases, or are inaccessable by road. There are many urban fringe areas that would be perfect choices for ML hunts. The problem that comes up at the Board of Game meetings is this;
When we present out proposal to the board, and talk about the limited range etc of ML's they jump on the fact that modern ML rifles have ranges over 200 yards with the power of a 300 win mag. and to back this up they pull out manufactures advertisements making all these claims about killing Elk at 250 yards, as well as articles in hunting magazines saying the same. They then ask about scopes and shotgun primers and so what is the difference between a Modern inline and a traditional gun. They dont understand the difference. This puts us in the position of trying to explain the difference in the short time alotted to speak. We have tried to have them create tighter regulations on what is a ML, If we try to limit it to Traditional weapons it gets shot down. ADF&G conducted a survey and found 68% of the ML hunters in Alaska use Inlines. The Alaska State Muzzleloading association managed to create a bigger hassel for us by convincing the BOG to require ML hunters who want to hunt in special ML hunts to take a class and get a certification card. I for one refuse to take such a class, I have been hunting with ML's for over 35 years. I spoke to a person at rondy this summer who took the class, guess what kind of guns they supplied? Modern Inlines.
Donated by the gun makers. I hunt with a traditional gun and do so during the regular seasons, since the special hunts are by drawing permit only the chances of getting one are slim.
I have seen that most states just have a seperate season for Bow, ML's and centerfires. We tried to get a system like that many years ago and were shutout by the BOG, as a note we have about half a dozen ML'only hunts in state, bow hunters at last count had bow only hunts in 136 seperate areas.Bigger lobby than us. While we should always support more hunting options to get people in the field, the whole reason behind primitive weapons hunts are being undermined by the gun makers and gun writers who continue to make outlandish claims as to the effectiveness of there guns at long range. These claims are being used against us, Alaska is newer to this than most lower 48 states who have had ML hunts for many years. Sorry for the Rant, this is a touchy subject.

Idaho has had some very strange thinking for a long time. Way back in the day Southern Idaho did not have ONE ML hunt. We had to travel two to three even four hours to be able to go on a ML hunt. Then a number of years ago that was changed and we got a few hunts and any ML was legal. Well after a few years the harvest was too high to be able to keep the hunts in place. So they went to a “traditional ML season” and a ML season, the later one was for inlines that used a cap exposed to the weather and loose powder. The Traditional season requirements were basically a side lock gun like a TC Renegade, loose powder, a #11 cap or flint, open sights or a Peep, and a PRB. I quit putting in for the hunts since I would not use a PRB.
The F&G a couple of years later said they were seeing too high of a wounding rate with PRB so the dept of F&G changed the rule and allowed conical’s. That is when I started to put in for the traditional ML hunts again with my TC Renegades.
Then Northern Idaho with their abundance of whitetails wanted to use inlines and soon they got huge support for several gun makers. They said we want to use inlines, and the regional F&G here in southern Id said if the inlines come back tags and opportunity will be cut. Well they changed and now allow inlines that have an exposed #11 cap loose powder and either a PRB or a conical. Also the tags were cut like they said they would. Now a guy can argue that almost all the tags were cut for antlerless animals in Idaho. But the fact is the inlines came back and we will see lower numbers of tags and the opportunity will decrease. Where is this going? Well on July 23 the commission will meet again. This is what is on the agenda from the IDFG web page.
__________________________________________________
C) Issue: Use of scopes by visually impaired hunters during muzzleloader seasons: In July 2006, the North American Muzzleloader Hunting Association filed a discrimination complaint with the U.S. Department of Interior against Idaho and 14 other states that prohibit the use of scopes during muzzleloader-only seasons. The complaint contended that older hunters, and those with visual disabilities, were being discriminated against by prohibiting the use of scopes. The U.S. Department of Interior found that Idaho did not discriminate on the basis of age, but requested Idaho Fish and Game provide information on the process used to reasonably accommodate hunters with visual disabilities; consistent with requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
Proposal: Establish a procedure for hunters with disabilities to apply for and receive approval from the director of Fish and Game for reasonable accommodation to participate in special weapon hunting seasons. A licensed medical practitioner would be required to certify the applicant requires reasonable accommodation in order to participate in the special weapon hunting season. Additionally, the reasonable accommodation would not result in the disabled hunter have a significant advantage over non-disabled hunters. For example, persons with a focusing disability (e.g. presbyopia) could request the use of optical sighting device without magnification in a muzzleloader-only hunt.
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What is going to happen is the guys that use inlines, scopes, pelleted powder, and sabots will end up opening it up to the point that ALL technology will be allowed. When that happens we will go back to the days when we had NO hunts for ML’s in southern Idaho.
We had a good run. We had some great hunts and I was able to get a couple of 30” mule deer. I am afraid that the days of using my TC Renegades on quality ML hunts are about over. Ron

I have wondered about the percentage of traditional versus modern hunters, shooters who subscribe to muzzleblast, (nmlra), I am guessing that 75 percent are actually traditional shooters, hunters, maybe higher. The modern hunters are not going to waste their money on a magazine, they are only interested in hunting one week out of the year. In the summer they would rather be out golfing than sighting in their scoped, pellet powered, sabot bullet, inline. But come a week or two before deer season, they are ready. The muzzleloader seasons have really got out of hand, especially here in Iowa. Most of these people have no clue of what hunting with a real muzzleloader is all about, get close, make that first shot count. If it were up to me, I would limit it to round ball only, yup, you can use a scoped inline, sub. powder, heck, you can even use a sabot around the round ball. Anyway, sometimes I think maybe us trad. hunters, shooters should leave it up to the modern guys to support nmlra. flinch

Are you allowed to hunt with a ML during the regular gun seasons? I gave up applying for permits after 17 years of applying and getting 1 permit for 1 caribou. I use my ML's to hunt with when the general seasons open, I dont feel disadvantaged at all, and i will continue to hunt with a traditional ML regardless of the competition in the feild. I rarely run into other hunters in the areas i hunt.

I would say a higher wounding rate with prb is BS, unless you are out there just flinging lead, any resopnsible hunter is going to know the limit of the round ball. As far as scopes for people who can't see well, well if you need a scope to see what you are shooting at, maybe it is time to throw in the towel, just another excuse for an advantage. flinch