200 yard group

I have a 45 cal custom percussion with a 36" barrel. I have just gotten into this so I went to my range and messed around at 200yrds on sand bags for a group. The final results were the best I could come up with was 10"-12" group with 70 grains of 3-F. The question is, is that good, bad, average, stinks, excellent, what? I haven't seen anyone else try it around here and they don't seem to know what to expect out of one of these gas pipes.

Goldenage said:

I have a 45 cal custom percussion with a 36" barrel. I have just gotten into this so I went to my range and messed around at 200yrds on sand bags for a group. The final results were the best I could come up with was 10"-12" group with 70 grains of 3-F. The question is, is that good, bad, average, stinks, excellent, what? I haven't seen anyone else try it around here and they don't seem to know what to expect out of one of these gas pipes.

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WOW :shocked2: 10"-12" group with a 70 grain load at 200 yds.
Well a group like that doesn't stink, not bad either, don't know about average or good as I haven't shot at 200yds, heck I have a hard time getting a good group at 100 yds.
I would say good..........just my thoughts :thumbsup:

sixbull

Most I know can't do that with a CF rifle at that range using open sights.

Nice shooting!!! :thumbsup:

It is a good group with primitive sights.
It could be tightened up with target sights, very exact loading procedures, weighed powder charges of consistant powder, and a whole lot more efforts.
Plainly explained by any bench rest shooter, but not with a typical traditional muzzleloading rifle.
Old Ford

Sounds like you have a good rifle, and that load is a good start. You might be able to shoot hand-sized groups at 200 yards, but any wind will drift the balls. I have done this with my .54 Green River Leman and .530 roundballs and 120 grains of Goex 2F at 1860 fps. Had to hold a full sight high from 100 yard zero, about 26" drop at 200 if I remember right. But is sure is easy to get a 15" group, too, with wind. This was when I was checking out drop for an antelope load, with no wiping between shots.

well, you're clearly a much better shot than i, and getting ten inch groups out of any prb at that range is impressive. it may tighten up as you work up the best load/ball/patch combination, but remember that these little round guys are very sensitive to wind drift.

welcome to the addictive world of charcoal burners!

msw

You're doing fine. Early results at 100 with this gun are right in line with that. I do have a place to shoot 200 and once I get my loose sights sorted out, I'll shoot a couple of groups and report back. This is going to be fun.

Goldenage said:

I have a 45 cal custom percussion with a 36" barrel. I have just gotten into this so I went to my range and messed around at 200yrds on sand bags for a group. The final results were the best I could come up with was 10"-12" group with 70 grains of 3-F. The question is, is that good, bad, average, stinks, excellent, what? I haven't seen anyone else try it around here and they don't seem to know what to expect out of one of these gas pipes.

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I'd say that is doing well with primitive sights. at 100 yards my .50 gets saucer-size groups off a rest. I hesitate to take a shot at a deer unless standing still and broadside at 100 yds. so I say you are doing OK. :thumbsup:

According to my Roundball Ballistics Calculator, a 2 mile an hour crosswind will deflect a .440 diameter ball about 10 inches at 200 yards.

I'd say anyone who gets a 12 inch group with a roundball at 200 yards is doing great.

Better eyes than me! I'd need a 24" black bullseye to find it in the sights at 200 yards with open iron sights and would be happy to keep them in that. Not even sure currently how much hold over that would take with my flinter. I've had some humbling shots at gongs out to 150 or 200 yards and for the most part those are "hold and hope" shots concentrating on the chain (or where I hoped that was).

25+ years ago a friend and I used to go after woodchucks with m/l at that kind of range (with Maxi-balls - my misspent youth) and it was mostly the very unlucky ones we knocked over . . . rarely.

I've never tried a target past 100 yards with a Flintlock...might try the .58cal at 150 and 200 yards just for the hands on experience of it

Here is a group I shot at 200 yards. I shot two shots and adjusted my sight to hit closer to the center and shot a then shot a 4 shot group. This is the only group I have shot out that far that I have a picture of. I should have cleaned it after the first two shots. The group would have been smaller.
My 45 will shoot a little better but I haven't taken a picture of any groups with it yet.
Ron

Goldenage
Thats a good starter, something I could do when I could se fine front sights,you don't say what kind of sights. Ive seen org targets from the 1800s that with open sights and even scoped got no better than 6" at 200. ( I only got into a little 200 yder stuff while shooting the 1000 yd games. Im guessing with fine tuneing you'll get into the 6" if the wind dont kick up as "Z" said. Weve got shooters down here that ca keep thm real tight 2" or so but those are 50,54 and the 58 is good on wind (we got a little of that in Tex) :rotf: If my oldst gets here before dark I'll have him try his hand at it, he uses a 50 on deer out to 150 and has never lost one, so he's good at wind ect Fred :hatsoff:

I drug old Santa Fe out for some 200 yard work today. My back sight is a little loose and until I tighten that up or replace it, I'm not worrying much about zero... so the object was to just get it on paper at 200 yards so we could see how she'd shoot Hornady .54 ball at that distance. The set-up looked like this:



As soon as the first shot landed in the bottom-right corner, I started shooting for groups. I shot with two different patches; one tight and one almost loose. Caps were CCI No. 11 Magnums; charge was 75 grains of Triple Seven, thrown from a flask.

Set trigger was used for all shots except the one at low-left, marked "Flyer-Early!" Duh. That was supposed to be the first shot of the second group, but I 'set' the front trigger before I had the sight picture perfected. "Surprise, Gomer! Big rifle go BOOM right now, when you pull FRONT trigger." When I got done laughing at myself, I ignored that shot and fired three more.



The WAY tight patch resulted in the ball being deformed (flat spot) from driving it into the muzzle. That group is the holes marked '1' and it spans 7 3/4 inches.

Oddly, the loose patch shot to the same POI and considerable better at 6 1/2 inches, discounting the flyer.

All seven shots went into over 9 inches- not too bad for a old round-ball gun with primitive sights.

Believe I have a shooter here.

I just completed some lock repair work on a custom Hawken, made in North Carolina 15 years ago, don't have the maker's name to hand. So to check the work, I shot it at 200 measured yards today. Used .520 cast balls and 80 grains of Goex 3F with Levi patching and Murphy Oil Soap/alcohol lube, no wiping between shots. CCI 11 primers. This load shot 5 into one-half inch twice at 50 yards from rest, at 1630 fps.

The front sight covers about 24", or most of the cardboard. I figured the drop would be about 28 to 30 inches, so held on top of the cardboard. Taped two targets on to catch the group, did not know where it would fall. A breeze from the right, but I think the three wide shots are either the load or because I couldn't see the target well enough. Six shots in 18", with three of them in 3 3/4". I expected to do a lot better, but this shows why these rifles are best used within about 100 yards on game.

some info here http://www.lrml.org/

Thanks, Donny. I'll pass this web site on to my black powder cartridge friends. I just completed some start up loading for an 1874 .45-70 Sharps from Big Timber, MT, using 500 grain cast bullets. I chronographed 60 grains of Goex 2F, Swiss 2F and Swiss 1 1/2. Now, these are powders we can use in roundball muzzleloaders, so comparative velocities may be of some interest here, though of course .54 or .58 roundballs weigh a lot less. With 62 grains, ten shots of Goex 2F averaged 1134 fps with 52 spread. Swiss 1 1/2 went 1201 for five shots with 21 spread, and Swiss 2 went 1196 for five shots with 44 spread. I have used Swiss 1 1/2 in my .58 Green River flintlock I built.

My deer creek .45 i had used to shoot 4 to 4 1/2" groups @ 200 but i was using the modern 225g powerbelt bullet and 100g 2f goex. That was fun but theres no way i could see an animal in my sights at that range.

Just a quick note to the thread...

Since the rifle had shown a preference for 0.010 patches, I picked up 100 'Ox Yoke' prelubed with '1000 Plus'...at six cents apiece they should do all they advertise and mow your lawn too. I was expecting good things since they loaded easy, looked to be the right thickness, etc.

I have been cutting a 200-yard step on the sight elevator and wanted to check it for zero today. I loaded carefully, seated uniformly and paid particular attention to sight picture, clean break and all the stuff that makes little groups instead of big ones. Shooting on a backer as shown in the first post, shots were literally all over the paper. I thought it was me so I shot another string with the same results. My groups looked like a riot gun patterned with 00 buck at 35 yards. I usually shoot way better than that at 200, even with irons; but I thought maybe I was just having a bad day.

Finally it occurred to me that the only thing different was the patches. I grabbed 3 of the 0.020's I was shooting in post #1, and ripped off 3 shots with the sun setting in the trees behind my backstop. Those 3 rounds went into 10 inches- not the best group I've fired with this rifle but way better than I was getting with the Ox Yokes- which are probably great patches. The resident .50 may shoot them just fine.

But the fact is that ol' Santa Fe don't like them- not even a little bit. It just goes to show that little changes can make big accuracy difference- for the better or worse.

One of the things to remember when buying pre lubed patches is that age weakens them.

If the patches were made within the last couple of months they will usually work just fine but if they have been sitting on a shelf for a year (or more) the material will have lost its strength and they will be blown apart or ripped by the rifling when they are shot.

This applies to home made patches too so if a person has some pre-lubed patches that they made a year or so ago they should expect to shoot some ragged groups with them.

Yes, the switch from .010 thick to .020 thick patches might be a major player in the improvement in accuracy but I suspect that the Ox Yoke patches were pretty old.

The best way to figure out what was really happening is to retrieve some of the shot patches.
If the center area looks ripped or burned you have found the problem.