Muzzleloading Forum .....


Contact - Can't Login?
Login Name Post: 12 ga. and round ball?        (Topic#199980)
bowjock 
40 Cal.
Posts: 170
11-23-06 08:36 AM - Post#335673    


I have a Thompson Center New Englander 12ga with the screw in chokes. Can this be shot as a smoothbore with round balls? If so, what choke would you use and what ball/powder configeration would be best

 
paulvallandigham 
Passed On
Posts: 17538
paulvallandigham
11-23-06 08:50 AM - Post#335676    

    In response to bowjock

I would use an Open Cylinder choke tube in the gun if I were shooting round ball. Probably a .715 RB will be a good choice, with .015" thick prelubed patching. You really do need to measure the inside bore dimension of the gun to get the exact measurement in thousandths of an inch, so that you can choose a proper ball and patch combination.

Start with 70 grains of Goex FFg powder, and work up from there. Work for an accurate load at 50 yds. Beyond that the ball is going to shed velocity and accuracy. Some smoothbores can be made to shoot good groups out to 75 yds. Rarely will an unrifled barrel shoot well beyond that. However, there are deer killed every year with guys shooting shotguns with round ball or slugs, well beyond 100 yds. There are also a lot of deer crippled and maimed at those distances, too. Have no doubt that that heavy round ball will kill at many times that range. You would not want to be hit by an ounce and an eight of lead ball at any distance!

Have you considered using one of the rifle screw in choke tubes that extend the barrel several inches but shoot rifled slugs like conicals? If the barrel is strong enough to support those screw in chokes, that might be something to try. Of course, you would then be shooting a " rifle " and not a smoothbore, if that would make a difference under your state regulations.

 
bowjock 
40 Cal.
Posts: 170
11-23-06 08:57 AM - Post#335680    

    In response to paulvallandigham

When you are talking about measuring the inside demisions of the barrel, are you talking about down the barrel or the deminsions of the opening at the choke tube?

 
Capt. Jas. 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2352
11-23-06 09:15 AM - Post#335683    

    In response to bowjock

You need the bore measurement down in the barrel. The chokes have different constrictions. Paul is suggesting you get the bore size to determine ball size. I would try your skeet choke constriction as well as cyl.to see how the ball performs.

 
Ohio Rusty 
40 Cal.
Posts: 344
Ohio Rusty
11-23-06 10:18 AM - Post#335709    

    In response to bowjock

The only thing you need is an open choke, like a cylinder bore choke tube and enough patching to make the ball/batch combo fairly tight. I have shot probably 100 rounds of ball from a 12 gauge. What I settled on was a .690 round ball since that mould was easily obtainable from Lee, and two 20 thousandth's patches to make that fairly tight patch/ball combo. Most 12 gauges measure .729 inner bore diameter. I had a friend that used to shoot .54 caliber ball from his 12 gauge with two wads around the ball made from an old blanket. He could actually hit stuff with it too !! Granted, that was waaay too small of a ball for a 12 gauge, but with a .687, or .690, or .700, or a .715 ball, any of these will be suitable in a 12 gauge so long as you get the patching right to get the fit to avoid blow by. Also, it wouldn't hurt to put an over powder wad between the powder and patched ball to keep all the gasses and velocity you need behind that ball for that big heavy ball to get down range. That much weight drops VERY RAPIDLY down range, so putting the card behind the patched ball to capture the inertia of ignition will help. With 100 grains of 2F, and the card and patched ball combo, my 12 gauge .690 ball would still drop 4 feet at 75 yards !! Play with patching and loads, and you'll be just fine shooting round ball from your gun.
Ohio Rusty

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
11-23-06 03:08 PM - Post#335782    

    In response to Ohio Rusty

As I'm in the proccess of having a 12 ga smoothy brewed up I'm interested in any info pertaining to roundballs. Have you tried felt wads in place of the over the powder wads? Just wondering if the softer felt wads would be better for accuracy or is this something I shouldn't be worried about?

 
Runner 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2071
11-23-06 03:35 PM - Post#335794    

    In response to Swampy

I don't have a cylinder tube for my gun, but the .715 balls will not go thru the full, modified, or improved choke tubes. I am thinking .690 .

 
Rebel 
Cannon
Posts: 7692
Rebel
11-23-06 04:03 PM - Post#335801    

    In response to Runner

I always used .690 rd balls in my double barrel .12 ga with cyl. bores. 90-100 grs of Pyrodex RS, and over powder wad, half a lubed cushion wad and ticking patched rd balls was an accurate load in mine.

 
hawk 2 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1559
hawk 2
11-23-06 05:40 PM - Post#335849    

    In response to Swampy

Swampy , I use felt liner out of an old boot seems to do the trick.I like to limit my shots to 50 yards,the closer the better in my book.
what length barrel are you lookin'at?

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
11-23-06 06:05 PM - Post#335862    

    In response to hawk 2

It's gonna be made with the Colerain 32" "D" profile barrel which should be just about perfect for me to load and handle without any problem.

Was just wondering if I should see about getting some felt and a cutter to make wads or not.

 
Cactus Bob 
32 Cal.
Posts: 13
11-24-06 02:35 AM - Post#335988    

    In response to Swampy

I have a NW trade gun in 12 ga (I know, not really HC). I settled on .690 RB with pillow ticking patch over 70 grains of 2Fg in this gun. I also have not worked up a good shot load.

Bob

 
bowjock 
40 Cal.
Posts: 170
11-27-06 04:43 PM - Post#337625    

    In response to Cactus Bob

I measured the barrel, and it measures.726. I have three choke tubes for it, cyl measures .727, mod. measures .715 and the full measures .694. So I guess a .015 patch along with the 690 ball would be a good place to start along with using the cyl choke tube.

 
paulvallandigham 
Passed On
Posts: 17538
paulvallandigham
11-27-06 10:51 PM - Post#337818    

    In response to bowjock

Don't use that .690 ball with any of the tigher choke tubes. That full choke will let the ball pass, but not the patching. In fact, you probably won't be able to seat the ball through that full choke tube. Use the Cylinder bore, or the Improved Cylinder choke tube at the most when shooting round ball. I don't know how thick the walls of the barrels are on that shotgun, but you need to take care before using any kind of choke when shooting a solid ball so that the barrel is not damaged. Good shooting.

 
bowjock 
40 Cal.
Posts: 170
11-28-06 06:33 AM - Post#337891    

    In response to paulvallandigham

I will definately be using the cyl bore.

 
WildShot 
40 Cal.
Posts: 313
11-29-06 02:25 PM - Post#338515    

    In response to bowjock

My favorite load for this gun is 80 gr. 2fg, one wonder wad, .715 ball, one wonder wad on top. I shoot this with a WinChoke cylinder (zero constriction) tube install. I like the WinChoke because they have no notch in the rim, easier to load through.

 
arcticap 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1519
arcticap
11-30-06 01:35 AM - Post#338775    

    In response to bowjock

Not that I agree, but someone posted elsewhere that:

"TC doesn't recommend round ball loads out of their smoothbores. They have told me that they were made for shot only.

I worked at a summer camp in central New Hampshire and my off time found me frequently at the Fox Ridge Shop in Rochester. One of the guys showed me a gun returned for stock repair. The stock was cracked where the patent breech hook was recessed above the wrist area of the stock. They stated that was caused by shooting round ball loads in the gun."

I guess the possibility is just something to be aware of.

 
Deadeye 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1944
Deadeye
11-30-06 08:20 AM - Post#338831    

    In response to arcticap

Did they think that a 500 gr. round ball recoiled more than 500 grs. of shot? I haven't found that to be true.

 
Blizzard of 93 
Cannon
Posts: 7220
11-30-06 08:29 AM - Post#338840    

    In response to bowjock

Is there a rifled choke tube available for that 12 ga.?

 
WildShot 
40 Cal.
Posts: 313
11-30-06 09:24 AM - Post#338869    

    In response to Blizzard of 93

rifled choke tube

Note that this is labeled as "Sabot Only" and is not intended for round balls. T/C would not approve of the use of this choke in their guns.

  • Quote:
Did they think that a 500 gr. round ball recoiled more than 500 grs. of shot? I haven't found that to be true.
No, but a tight fitting PRB would generate higher bore pressures.

Edited by WildShot on 11-30-06 09:33 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
paulvallandigham 
Passed On
Posts: 17538
paulvallandigham
11-30-06 09:51 AM - Post#338881    

    In response to Blizzard of 93

Think about what you are asking a " Rifled Choke Tube to do. In a rifled barrel, the rifling spins the bullet as soon as it moves in the barrel. In a Rifled Choke Tube, the bullet is traveling at a fast speed when it first enters the choke tube. Its like a race car going at 200 mph and entering a sharp curve. Except the car is made of soft lead, and doesn't have rubber tires to help it make the turn.

The use of a soft " sabot " allows the much smaller in diameter slug to enter the rifled choke tube at speed, with the sabot taking the torque of the twist of the rifling, while allowing the energy to be transferred to the bullet more slowly. If the sabot spins faster than the bullet, the friction created grabs the bullet as the sabot expands, acting like a car brake grabbing a brake drum. The bullet reaches the rate of twist rotation very quick. while the sabot takes all the torgue stresses. You can not achieve that when using a PRB or lead slug of bore diameter.

Now, some of those stresses are transferred to the barrel. If the barrel is thin walled, and round, it is not going to take the torque very long before troubles begin to show. However, if the barrel is thicker, as is seen in some shotgun barrels where the gauge chosen, say 20 gauge, is put in a barrel with the diameter of a 12 gauge shotgun, leaving much more metal to absorb torque. If the rate of twist is slowed, on a rifled choke tube, and the tube is made the same thick diameter of the harrel, with the rifled portion in an extension beyond the normal muzzle, it would be possible to create a rifled choke tube that would handle rifled slugs, or PRB. A 12 gauge bore on a 10 ga. barrel is now being done. Whether you can get extended choke tubes that are rifled for that particular gun I do not know. And I doubt that much work has been done to find the proper ROT for such a rifled tube to handle PRB, or conicals. If someone knows more about this, I would surely be interested in hearing about it.

 
arcticap 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1519
arcticap
12-01-06 02:43 AM - Post#339231    

    In response to paulvallandigham

I'm not addressing the specific functionality and safety issue of shooting a PRB out of a rifled choke "tube". But I have read about something that was designed and based on a similar principle. It was called a "Paradox Pistol" made by a man named Bowen, and it was based on a reworked Ruger revolver.
It only has rifling near the muzzle, and can shoot bullets, cartridge loaded balls and pistol cartridge shotshells well. There was an article and testing of it in a major gun magazine in the last 10 years. And the unpatched round balls shot very well although only engaging the rifling just before they exited the barrel, and the bullets did too. The term paradox refers to solving the problem of having one barrel shooting all the different style projectiles reasonably well, and how to accomplish or solve that problem. The partially rifled barrel was the solution, and not the problem.
While the gun below isn't the same Ruger revolver that Bowen designed and created, and which was written about and tested, I believe this commercial version is based on the same principle.

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/NEW/Paradox_r1_c1.htm

Edited by arcticap on 12-01-06 02:56 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
paulvallandigham 
Passed On
Posts: 17538
paulvallandigham
12-01-06 07:51 AM - Post#339274    

    In response to arcticap

Please remember how thick the barrels are on modern revolvers, like the Ruger. All that extra metal can allow you to do a lot of things you can't still do with the typical thin-walled shotgun barrel. I don't recall that work on the Ruger, and I am fuzzy about what everyone calls paradox rifling these days, as the term has been in use for years, and seems to get applied to different things. Also, rifling in modern guns i much more shallow in depth than you find in black powder arms designed to shoot lead projectiles. Certainly any gun bore designed to shoot a Patched Round Ball is going to have deeper grooves than would ever be contemplated for a gun shooting modern cartridges, at higher velocities and chamber pressures, using copper jacketed bullets. Because those jacketed bullets are so hard, deep grooves would actually allow gas cutting, and accuracy would be, and is terrible! There is a limit to the extent to which modern technology and old firearms can be married together.

This is why I suggested that a shotgun barrel would have to be based on a thick barrel concept, that is now available, BTW, from New England Arms, and it would have to be a barrel extension design with the tube also being very thick. I think the resulting weight would make the gun unwieldy to use for anything other than shooting slugs, or PRB like a rifle. It would make more sense to simply rifle the bore of the gun and call it a " slug barrel", which is what it would be.


A Friend of mine has been working on improving Shotgun performance since the mid 1950s, and even has a letter from ATF dated in about 1958 telling him that it would be illegal for him to rifle a shotgun barrel! He keeps it with an Ad placed in Shotgun News, by Hastings Barrels, showing a copy of al letter from the then ATF to the president of Hastings, saying his rifled shotgun barrels are legal! My friend has worked with round ball, slugs, sabots, choke tubes, even rifled choke tubes, and he designed his own slug for use in smoothbore barrels, and then modified it to be used in rifled barrels, after he and I discussed some ideas.

The idea of using a rifled choke tube for smothbore shotgun came up, and it does work. The gun becomes very muzzle heavy. It works fine with a cartridge gun. We have not really found a satisfactory way to load a patched round ball down the barrel of one of these for a muzzle loading shotgun.

 
Icon Legend Permissions Topic Options
Print Topic


3152 Views
Welcome Guest...
Enter your Login Name and password to login. If you do not have a username you can register one here

Login Name

Password

Remember me. Help



Login Not Working?...

Registered Members
Total: 31794
Todays
Birthdays
2-25MDK_WV
Current Quote
"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
~ Napoleon Bonaparte

PRIVACY POLICY
FusionBB™ Version 3.0 FINAL | ©2003-2010 InteractivePHP, Inc.
Execution time: 0.357 seconds.   Total Queries: 91  
All times are (GMT-6.0). Current time is 01:11 PM
Top