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Knife Question

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Swampman

69 Cal.
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Coffin Handled, 6" blade, 2" Clip Point, 6 pin coffin shaped handles.

How far back would you date this design? I'm thinking 1800 or so.
 
I'm looking at a picture of what you describe in a book entitled "Steel Canvas, The Art of American Arms". They date the knife shown as 1835.

"WB
 
Thanks, I'm looking for a Fur Trade era knife to display with my Hawken. I believe it would work fine for that.
 
If you are talking about the classic coffin handled "Bowie" with silver pins and silver wrap they seem to date to the late 1820s at the earliest, but it is anyone's guess. They appear during the Bowie knife craze and most date from the 1830s, especially Sheffield copies. There is argument over their origins. One school (including me) hold that they were 'invented' by a smith named James Black of Washington, Arkansas, perhaps in the 1820s-- and 1830s Sheffield copies are aften marked "Arkansas Toothpick". There are several such knives known that are attributed to Black, one of which is owned by my uncle Carrigan's family. The Carrigan's were early settlers of Washington, Ark. Copies were also made in Cinncinati and other places. These were guardless knives made in different blade lengths from 6" to 13". Some "experts" doubt this story, but to do so is to ignore period references and written family histories--it is their perogative to ignore information, but I had rather consider it. Black claimed to have made a knife for Jim Bowie and the biggest arguments are over that. There is a small coffin "Bowie" in a museum in north Arkansas inscribed as a gift to a fellow from Col. Bowie--but that could be Rezin Bowie, who was known to give knives to friends. The famous "Bowie No.1"--a 13" bladed coffin handled knife is in the Little Rock Territorial museum and debate continues over that appellation. I would hesitate to say that knife style dates much before 1820.
 
Mike, a most interesting story!

About 4 years back I went as a spectator to the Battle of New Orleans reenactment. One reenactor there was showing me the medley of weapons a given participant would have carried; as I recall, the arsenal included a musket, bayonet, brace of heavy pistols, tomahawk, and a Bowie knife.

Well, I started thinking that this made a good sampling of the whole array of arms that an 1815 participant might have had to choose from; but that he'd have needed a wheelbarrow to bring it all at once. :grin: But then I started thinking about the Bowie...went home and looked it up and learned that yes, he was about 20 years ahead of himself.

Got me interested in reenacting; and in historical documentation. :)

Capt. William
 
Large knives were carried by people long before the Bowie knife craze, and the "classic" Bowie knife we think of, with clip point and full guard is a 'late' invention. The original sandbar fight knife Jim Bowie used was a plain butcher knife with a 9 1/4" blade. The oldest surviving dated "Bowies" belonging to the family are large butcher style knives either without guards or with a half guard--and none have clipped blades. These knives date to the latest 1820s and 1830s (sandbar fight was 1827).
 
IMG_0018.jpg


here are a few of my coffin handle knives plus a derivative dogbone handle knife. The smallest is 6" blade copy of the Carrigan knife; the largest have 10" blades.
 
IMG_0020.jpg


The top knife is a copy of the oldest dated Bowie family knife, owned by Rezin ca. 1828 and given to a friend in 1831. It is probably a fancied up version of the sandbar knife used by Jim...blades are ~10".
 
Mike, they are all beauties! But only the smallest one looks practical.

The knife this reenactor was showing me / off was the "classic clip point / handguard" style.

Capt. William
 
Capt_William said:
Mike, they are all beauties! But only the smallest one looks practical.

The knife this reenactor was showing me / off was the "classic clip point / handguard" style.

Capt. William

Yep, the small one is a good working knife, and the others are fighting knives. The Bowie knife craze was about fighting knives. It isn't known whether or nor Black first made the small ones and scaled them up during the "craze" or whether he scaled down to the small ones for folks that wanted something more 'practical'.
 
Swampman, do you want me to scan the photo of the knife in the book I mentioned and post it? The book also shows a bowie that they claim is considered to be the 'original' It was given by Jim Bowie to an actor friend. I could post that one also if you want. It looks very similar to one the top knife in Mike's second photo.

WB
 
WeaselBreath said:
Swampman, do you want me to scan the photo of the knife in the book I mentioned and post it? The book also shows a bowie that they claim is considered to be the 'original' It was given by Jim Bowie to an actor friend. I could post that one also if you want. It looks very similar to one the top knife in Mike's second photo.

WB

Please do post the picts kind sir .. I would be interested in seeing them myself!

Davy
 
The one I was looking at was more of a simple butcher knife. I wouldn't call it a Bowie.
 
Swampman said:
The one I was looking at was more of a simple butcher knife. I wouldn't call it a Bowie.

Ahh!, but that is what the 'original' Bowie knife looked like--a butcher! The one the actor had is debated, but is a simple large heavy butcher knife with wood slab handles, no guard and no clip point. The later Bowie knives got interpreted in so many ways as to confuse the issue and today most 'experts' disagree on even the basic history and definition of a Bowie knife.
Eyewitness account of the sandbar fight described Bowie as using a "big butcher knife". Jim Bowie's own brother (Rezin) wrote that it was a plain knife with wood handles and a straight-topped blade single edged and 9.25" long by 1.5" wide. The incident was widely written up in papers, but this was before photos and when people asked for a "knife like Bowies" that got translated many ways. The knife I picture above (2nd photo, top) is a close copy of the knife Rezin had made to replace the one he had given his brother before the sandbar fight (1827). It is a fancy 'butcher' with a 10" blade. These are the original knives. In my book they are the true Bowies and all others are evolutionary descendants.
 
Mike
I like the one on top, the Rezin bowie. Looks a little like a "Sunday go to meetin'" riflemans knife. :winking:

Regards, Dave
 
Me too. The great thing about the original Bowie is that it is "timeless" whereas the later ones are period specific. The knife feels great in the hand--the maker (it is hand forged as are all of them shown) tapered the blade from the handle to tip so that the weight is in the hand--it is not tip heavy. It is made of spring steel. It would be deadly in a fight. Most of the knives shown are by Arkansas master smiths, but the Rezin knife is by a local smith here in Shreveport and he said it was hard to make--it's a beaut!
 
hello Swampman...

I am kind of surprised you dont want
a "Green River" to display with the Hawken..
Till recently that was the mountain man
double tag team combo...hawken and green river...

They still are unless the arguement is the
pre 1840 thing...I know a hawken collector
that collects green rivers too...

Just a thought....

T.Albert
 
Here is the image of the coffin handled knife dated 1835 from the book I mentioned in my above post:
knife_01.jpg


Here is the image of what is supposed to be the original Bowie from the same book:
knife_02.jpg


WB
 
xmusso.jpg


Here is the famous Musso Bowie

xmogfore1.jpg


The Moore Bowie that is also claimed as a original James Bowie knife.

x1101209787821_coffin_Bowie_bb.jpg


Another period Bowie knife that may be attributed to Rezin Bowie, I am not sure.

xlaurabowie.jpg


And here is descendant Laura Bowie holding the Musso and Moore Bowies together. :grin:

Davy
 
Ah, yes. The Musso Bowie is IMHO a cartoon Bowie and most experts dismiss it (but don't tell Joe Musso or he'll sue you)--the owner is its main supporter, but he has foisted it on several movie producers. The Moore Bowie is also very dubious. It is presently in the Little Rock Ark territorial museum separate from the other Bowies with noncommittal commentary. The long coffin handled knife you show and attribute to Rezin is actually attributed to James Black of Ark by alot of experts. It is a big version of the Carrigan knife. It is a real Bowie, the other two may be fakes. Certainly the Musso Bowie is identical to another one that has been shown to be a fake that was originally pictured on the cover of Peterson's book American Knives. One Bowie expert (Ben Palmer) wrote that he suspected any brass-backed Bowie to be a fake.
 
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