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Login Name Post: Great Plains Pistol for deer hunting?        (Topic#186250)
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
11-04-05 10:51 PM - Post#186572    


I am wondering about the suitability of a Lyman Great Plains Pistol for close range deer hunting. Would this pistol in .54 caliber with a 50 grain load of FFFg Goex and a patched round ball make over 500 foot pounds of muzzle energy? To be deer hunting legal in IL it has to make at least 500ft/lb/me. Have any of you taken deer with this pistol? How did it do?
We're talking about a 150 lb doe. Maybe 25 yards. IL only allows muzzle loading handguns during the "Late Season Antlerless Only Season".
If it's a good idea, I have until the middle of January to get a pistol and get sighted in.
I have a Traditions Kentucky pistol in .50 caliber but the manual says 45 grains max load and that falls short of the legal muzzle energy. I am having no luck finding much information on pistol ballistics. Could I safely hit the magic # with a conical?
Thanks for any input.
Jethro

 
flaming canvas 
45 Cal.
Posts: 644
flaming canvas
11-04-05 11:37 PM - Post#186606    

    In response to Jethro224

500 ft lbs out of a 230 grain bullet will take a velocity of about 975 to 1000 fps. That may be a little more than you can get out of a 10 inch barrel with 50 grains of powder. If you have access to a chronograph you can get an accurate velocity.

Roger

 
bigbore442001 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1167
11-05-05 05:29 AM - Post#186666    

    In response to Jethro224

It can be done, but in all honesty, you don't have much of a fudge factor with such a gun. I have hunted deer and wild boar with a muzzleloading handgun successfully. But I use a M82 Kahnke pistol in 50 caliber with a 14" barrel and a sabot. It is in the same power catagory as a 44 magnum . So there was no problem in dropping game at close range with the gun.

You could do it but I wouldn't feel comfortable myself doing it.

 
strongarm 
40 Cal.
Posts: 196
11-12-05 11:28 PM - Post#190632    

    In response to Jethro224

In the State of Wisconsin, you can carry the pistol only as a second firearm. And watch how you carry it, it must be outside your jacket and completely exposed. A holster is considered concealing it.

 
buttonbuck 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1486
buttonbuck
11-23-05 08:13 PM - Post#196028    

    In response to Jethro224

I too am a fellow Ilinois Deer hunter and considered this same option only I hunt in woodford county, no late season, Anyway i killed out early on friday so I investigated this option. I called Lyman and asked you same question. Yes with a 230 grain prb it gives 510 ftlb this drops to 475 at 25 yards, so use a buffalo bullet or something, I think a lyman buffalo bullet was in the 600s or better. I found that mid south shooting supplies had the cheepest kits, you need to have the kit shipped to a FFL person in illinois. good luck let us know how it went

 
Anonymous 
11-25-05 04:24 AM - Post#196589    

    In response to Jethro224

Jethro, get the GPR and do it. At the ranges and size of deer you're talking about you won't have any trouble. The 230 gr. RB at 25 yards with a stiff powder charge will settle the hash of a lot bigger critters than a 150 lb doe. It's all about shot placement, you do your part and the PRB will do what it's supposed to do.

Vic

 
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
11-26-05 12:32 AM - Post#196994    

    In response to sharps4590

I sent in for the Late Winter antlerless tag. We'll see if I get it. If I get the tag, I'll give it a whirl. Late Winter season is the only time muzzleloading handguns are legal in IL.
I'll let ya know how it works out. Still gotta get the tag, then the shot. Deer are scarcer and spookier by then. And I'll be limited to bowhuntin' type shots. It ain't gonna be easy.

 
Deadeye 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1944
Deadeye
11-26-05 11:19 AM - Post#197109    

    In response to Jethro224

You need about 1000 fps for the RB and about 750 fps for the 400 gr. minnie. It takes about 100 gr. of 3f to get 1000 with a RB in my .54 and generates substantial recoil.

 
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
11-28-05 07:04 PM - Post#198367    

    In response to Deadeye

Deadeye, if you're puttin' 100 grains in a pistol, you are a scary dude. I bet it does make substantial recoil! What I read said 50 grains max for the Great Plains Pistol. I think I'll stick to that.

I got my brand new Lyman Blackpowder Handbook And Loading Manual today. According to them, a 50gr load of FFFg Goex under a 222gr, .530 ball will make 537 Ft/lbs of muzzle energy at 1044 fps.
45 grains will make 500 ft/lb even at 1007 fps.

I ordered the pistol. Just enough time left to get 'er sighted in.

 
Anonymous 
12-01-05 05:37 AM - Post#199480    

    In response to Jethro224

Jethro...

Drop me an e-mail at sharps4590@socket.net I don't see where or how to PM you off this site anymore.

Vic

 
Deadeye 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1944
Deadeye
12-01-05 09:53 AM - Post#199513    

    In response to Jethro224

No Jethro, not a scary Dude, just someone with about 50 yrs. experience shooting Muzzleloading
pistols as opposed to someone who only read something in a book. Sorry I tried to help you.

 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 26197
Zonie
12-01-05 01:25 PM - Post#199587    

    In response to Deadeye

To start a PM (private message) click on the persons name. That will take you to their vital statistics page.
Up at the top of the page is a clickable
"Start Private Topic"

Click it and write your message just like you were posting a answer to a post and send it just like you were entering the "post".

The person recieving the message will get a pop up saying he/she has a message.
You and the reciever can send it back and forth as many times as you like.
Just Jim...



 
buttonbuck 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1486
buttonbuck
12-02-05 06:38 PM - Post#200130    

    In response to Zonie

thought about your quest today as I cleaned up my 54 renegade I shot a 150lb 4 year old doe, my buddy aged the doe as he used to work at the deer checkpoints, another seasonal outsourced job. Well I can say I learned more about tracking in one morning than in 11 years of deer hunting. Shot at 45 yards broad side at a lead doe. Showed no sign of being hit, checked for blood, virtually no blood, looked more closely after I waited for about an hour, found bone, hair blood out of right side, then it stoppped I looked and looked found her 100 yards from where I shot. it was so cold that the blood froze to her side, even the the bullet passed cleanly through both lungs. I guess what I am saying shooting a 54 cal Remington 400 grain hollow point bullet with 100g of clean shot did the trick but I question if the bullet had been slower like from a pistol shot at 25 yards with 50 grains would it have expanded more it looked like it did not expand much.

 
Zonie 
Moderator
Posts: 26197
Zonie
12-02-05 06:59 PM - Post#200140    

    In response to buttonbuck

Although this is better suited to the Hunting Forum, I will carry on by saying that by not pressing the deer after you shot it, you used one of the older (and better) methods around.

If you just wait for a while, the deer will often go a little ways and realize it isn't being followed. Not feeling well because of the gunshot, they will often lay down to get to feeling better. They usually don't get back up.
Just Jim...



 
buttonbuck 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1486
buttonbuck
12-02-05 09:27 PM - Post#200189    

    In response to Zonie

Yep In short the point and question to answer, I was trying to get at was "would a 400 grain hollow point with the 50 grain charge expand better than the 100 grain charge. From what I saw today was that the hollow point did not expand, it just went cleanly through the deer, It hit hyde, 2 ribs and 2 lungs on its way out. I guess I was also saying that the late antlerless only season in mid january, dang cold in Illinois you would have to be mindful of the lack of blood trail. This deer went 50 yards w/o a drop of blood to follow, and bled out of one side only.

 
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
12-03-05 12:27 AM - Post#200249    

    In response to Deadeye

Deadeye,
Don't be sorry you tried to help me. I appeciate your input.
I wasn't tryin' to put you down. I respect anyones 50 years of experience. I hope I can ever get close to that. May you have many more.
Still, the pistols owners manual says 50 grains max. Doubling the manufacturers recommended max load scares the crap out of me. I won't do it. You can call me a wuss if you want. Just don't call me lefty.
You were right on with the fps needed to get the energy. Lyman says I can get it with half the powder and stay in the recommended load range. I may be inexperienced, but that is my plan.
All I gotta do anyway is have data to show the numbers to be legal. And shoot good. And get the chance in the first place. The deer don't care how many fps or ft/lbs killed 'em. Only the law does.


 
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
12-03-05 08:39 PM - Post#200577    

    In response to buttonbuck

Buttonbuck,

Get ahold of me before next season if you want to try the "Late Winter" season. I hunt Peoria County right near Bartonville. No promises because the landowner is presently trying to get a road thru the farm and put up a sub-division. If it goes thru, I'll be looking for a new place myself. If it don't, you can come huntin' with me.

Never saw blood freeze before it hit the ground. Have had several deer not bleed. Shot a doe with my recurve bow last year that ran 125 yds and fell where I could see her. Found hair at the hit site. Found 1 drop of blood 10 feet before the deer.
I find that when I hit 'em high thru the lungs most of the blood stays inside the chest cavity for a few seconds until they fill up. Then they either bleed real good or fall over.
Most deer I've shot went 20-30 yards before they left a blood trail.

PM me about the Late season if yer interested.



 
flaming canvas 
45 Cal.
Posts: 644
flaming canvas
12-04-05 05:43 PM - Post#200957    

    In response to buttonbuck

  • buttonbuck Said:
Yep In short the point and question to answer, I was trying to get at was "would a 400 grain hollow point with the 50 grain charge expand better than the 100 grain charge.


In short, no. The bullet expands because the back of the bullet is moving faster than the front of the bullet in the microseconds after impact. The lead absorbs the kinetic energy by deforming. This is more pronounced if the bullet is moving at a higher velocity

 
buttonbuck 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1486
buttonbuck
12-05-05 06:55 AM - Post#201138    

    In response to Jethro224

I think you are correct the hit was above the middle part of the deer where the chest cavity would fill up first and then leak. This will definately make me more of a diligent tracker for sue. I hunt woodford county near carlock on about 2 acres of timber, next to several hundred acres of timber so the deer move on through. bummer about more development. Here near Bloomington most people hunt on small tracts every inch of timber. Nearly any tract 1 acre or bigger holds deer I kid you not. Your even find tracts and see deer in small abandoned farm tracts .

 
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
12-22-05 11:28 PM - Post#210329    

    In response to Jethro224

Got my .54 GPP a couple weeks ago. It hits 2 inches high at 25 yards right out of the box with a PRB over 50gr 3f Goex.

My "Late Winter" permit came in the mail today. Now all I need is to get the shot...

I'll let y'all know how it turns out after Jan. 13-15th.

 
buttonbuck 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1486
buttonbuck
01-05-06 10:13 PM - Post#216627    

    In response to Jethro224

did you go with the kit or the complete gun? I am thinking about the kit to spend some quality time with the 13 year old. He is studying some of the time periods this gun may have been used in. I guess what I am asking is the kit fairly easy, say along the difficulty of fitting a handle and rivits to a buffalo skinner knife? and did you order the lyman adjustable sights from Mid south? Finally I understand us Illinois people neeed to have it sent to a FFL person? I will look for a reply?

 
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
01-08-06 11:56 AM - Post#217857    

    In response to buttonbuck

Buttonbuck,
I bought the completed pistol from Northern Rifleman online. No FFL required.
Since I wanted to be sighted in and ready for "Late Winter" season I didn't have time for a kit.
It has the fixed sights and shoots 3" high at 25 yards right out of the box. I didn't change a thing.
I bought the .54 cal because I wanted it for deer hunting and the Lyman loading manual says 50 grains of 3F Goex under a PRB will get me the 500 ft/lb to be legal in IL. And it is a fine match for my .54 GPR.
It's a good looking pistol, accurate enuff for me , trigger feels good. I'm very happy with it.
With luck I'll get a chance to try it on a doe next weekend. I'll let ya know...

 
Doc Will 
32 Cal.
Posts: 37
01-10-06 02:34 PM - Post#218863    

    In response to buttonbuck

Gentlemen,
Please check your state and local laws on pistol hunting. Some states require that a pistol barrel be at least 12 inches long. I believe a Lyman pistol is 9 inches and do stand to be corrected on that.
Keep Yer Powder Dry

 
Bolink345 
32 Cal.
Posts: 40
01-10-06 04:00 PM - Post#218908    

    In response to Doc Will

And check the laws good. The AGFC handbook (and the website) you can get anywere lisence are sold, says:

  • Quote:
Hunters may use muzzleloading handguns as long as the barrels are at least nine inches long and at least .45 caliber if they shoot conical bullets (200 grains or heavier). If round balls are used, the minimum caliber is .530. A hunter may carry a muzzleloading handgun of any caliber as backup to a muzzleloading long gun.


But it dont say, if carried as back-up, does barrel length matter? But it'd sure be silly if you could carry a .32 with a 9" barrel but not a .50 with an 8" barrel

And BTW, most things I read on the Plains pistol says 8" but some websites say 9", and even some say 10". I think lyman says 8" though, but I'm not sure as I havent recived my kit yet.

Anyway, I emailed AGFC about the barrel length when carried along with a legal ML long gun. My email was forwarded to the director of enforcement, who mailed me the enforcement code on muzzle loaders. It goes into far more detail, stating that even a cap & ball revolver may be carried, so long as your carrying a legal ML long gun, too. The handbook mentions nothing of cap&ball revolvers, anywere.

I'm going to carry mine next year, in .50 probably with a conical of some type if it'll shoot any of them good. But my first 2 deer will be shot with the CVA Bobcat, unless one sneaks up on me, and the Bobcat isnt at the ready. Only after I put 2 in the freezer, will I wait for one to get within 30 yards and use the Plains pistol...

Edited by Bolink654 on 01-10-06 04:01 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Jethro224 
Moderator
Posts: 7428
Jethro224
01-11-06 12:30 AM - Post#219140    

    In response to Doc Will

  • Doc Will Said:
Gentlemen,
Please check your state and local laws on pistol hunting. Some states require that a pistol barrel be at least 12 inches long. I believe a Lyman pistol is 9 inches and do stand to be corrected on that.
Keep Yer Powder Dry


From the Illinois Digest of Hunting and Trapping Regulations;
"Legal firearms for the Late Winter Antlerless Deer Hunting Season include all firearms described under Firearm Deer Hunting Season, page 10. In addition, muzzleloading handguns may also be used. Legal muzzleloading handguns are limited to single-shot muzzleloading handguns (blackpowder handguns that are incapable of being loaded from the breech end) of .50 caliber or larger capable of producing at least 500 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle according to published ballistic tables of the manufacturer. Single-shot muzzleloading handguns must use a projectile of .44 caliber or larger with sufficient blackpowder or "blackpowder substitute" (such as Pyrodex) to produce at least 500 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. A wad or sleeve is not considered a projectile or part of a projectile."

After wading thru all that several times, I think I'm good to go.

Here in IL there is a 4" minimum for centerfire single-shot pistol and revolver barrels. Apparently no minimum for frontloader pistols.

My Lyman Plains Pistol has an 8" barrel if you're curious.

Thanks for keepin' an eye out for us tho. Yuh never know what kinda goofy rules them gubmint fellers are gonna throw atcha...


 
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