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Login Name Post: Figure this out (please)        (Topic#248505)
lonehunter 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2106
lonehunter
07-19-10 08:58 PM - Post#879772    


T/C Hawken, flintlock, 15/16" .54GM barrel,
95gr FFF
ox yoke .020 prelubed patch
.535 swaged roundball
I have scratched a hole in my head, What could be the cause? 50 yrd benched.
Not actual target! but it does this consistently.

Any suggestions appreciated
Cmon, builders I want to hear what you think

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
07-19-10 09:06 PM - Post#879775    

    In response to lonehunter

First thing I would do is check to see if the barrel is loose. Is it seated correctly and tight to the barrel channel? Inspect for any signs of cracks in the wood.

Did you read your patches?


Edited by Swampy on 07-19-10 09:06 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
lonehunter 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2106
lonehunter
07-19-10 09:11 PM - Post#879779    

    In response to Swampy

Yeah Swampy, patches looked good, no holes or burn marks(could use them again)
barrel is tight, iron sights, they are tight. no cracks in stock, been all over that sucker looking for anything that could be wrong. I would say shooter error but its too consistent.

 
Ancient One 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1548
Ancient One
07-19-10 09:22 PM - Post#879782    

    In response to lonehunter

Haven't been dipping into the communal juice have ya?
Vern
never pick a fight with an old guy, if he's too old to fight, he'll just kill ya.


 
Stumpkiller 
Moderator
Posts: 17113
Stumpkiller
07-19-10 09:22 PM - Post#879783    

    In response to lonehunter

What is the twist rate in the GM barrel? Are you running a spit patch every so often? What lube? How thickly applied?

If your twist is over 1:66" add powder. If 1:48" or less reduce powder.

Start changing one thing at a time until the flyers disappear.

It's not stringing; which can be the barrel heating up or crud accumulating. Double-grouping in centerfire bench-rest often means a primer issue, so I'm putting my money on something that is "consistantly inconsistant". Loading pressure, swabbing between shots, load measurement, etc. Do everything you can to be consistant and see if it improves. (Even to the extent of, gasp, using weight-measured pre-prepared charges).
"Don't take life too serious - it ain't nohow permanent."


 
lonehunter 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2106
lonehunter
07-19-10 09:24 PM - Post#879784    

    In response to Ancient One

Well...

 
lonehunter 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2106
lonehunter
07-19-10 09:35 PM - Post#879785    

    In response to Stumpkiller

1/66 twist. Yes stumpy, forgot to mention i swabbed between shots, one stroke down and one back up, patches were pre lubed ox yoke. I even tried your moose juice mix on other patches. Powder was the same, it was loaded the same each time, i do understand the importance of consistency, loading pressure? I will evaluate that next time out.

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
07-19-10 09:48 PM - Post#879790    

    In response to lonehunter

Well theres something going on if you have no problem seeing your target and benching it, you should be able to get smaller groups than that. Following Stumpys Lead try changing one thing at a time and go back to 25 yards. Make sure your driving tacks at that range before moving on to 50.

I did run into one "Cougar" T/C that no matter what we did, just could not get it to group, it sprayed shots all over the target. After 2 full days of trying to get it to shoot straight, we threw our hands up and the owner sent the barrel to T/C and a week later recieved a new barrel. Seems they couldn't get it to shoot either.


 
Semisane 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1662
07-19-10 09:59 PM - Post#879795    

    In response to lonehunter

Those kind of things can give you fits Lonehunter. The first two things I would do is (1) check the tension of the tang mounting screws to make sure they are nice and tight, and (2) adjust the fit of the wedge by bending or straightening it to increase/decrease the tension of the barrel/stock fit. Sometimes a little tighter or looser will be the cure.

If that doesn't do the job, I would have someone else shoot the gun and see if they have the same results.

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
07-19-10 10:02 PM - Post#879798    

    In response to Semisane

Mine went to hell when I found I could push the wedge out with thumb pressure. When new I couldn't, needed to tap the wedge out.


 
lonehunter 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2106
lonehunter
07-19-10 10:18 PM - Post#879804    

    In response to Semisane

I Am going to get someone to shoot it, wedge is tight, have to tap it to get it out. the barrel fits very tight in the stock, fuzz bigger than the t/c barrel that was glass bedded, removed enough to get it to fit, but its tight.
I think i am going to do a little more sanding, maybe too tight
Thanks, you guys have given me more options, to ponder.
Increasing powder sounds good but im at 95gr FFF that's starting to get a little stiff don't you think?

 
Swampy 
Cannon
Posts: 15602
Swampy
07-19-10 10:26 PM - Post#879811    

    In response to lonehunter

  • Quote:
fuzz bigger than the t/c barrel that was glass bedded, removed enough to get it to fit, but its tight



Ohhh I gotta think there maybe some binding going on causeing pressure points that maybe causing the problem.


 
rawhide 
45 Cal.
Posts: 638
rawhide
07-19-10 11:24 PM - Post#879838    

    In response to Swampy

BINGO!!!! I think after reading this the barrel chanle is to tight causing it to bind or shitf. when you shoot. get some inletting and see where it's hitting then LIGHTLY sand the high spots. make take alittle wile but hey it may help. but that's what it sounds like to me. had the same problem on a 7 mouser found it was touching at the end of the fore end just enough to cuase trouble.

 
B Shipman 
36 Cal.
Posts: 76
07-19-10 11:45 PM - Post#879845    

    In response to rawhide

The barrel is so light, and of marginal safety, that the slightest error in any regard, will affect it. For Bill Large a .50 was 1 in. minimal.
Personally .50 15/16th in a long gun works great, but no more.

 
40 Flint 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1469
40 Flint
07-20-10 06:09 AM - Post#879875    

    In response to B Shipman

On this forum, many have said a GM barrel does not start shooting well until at least 100 rounds have been fired. So how many have been fired thru this barrel?

Also, you need to try FFg powder.

Another problem I have is with the round bead front sight and u notch rear such as the stock TCs and those that come on GM drop in barrels. I find it VERY difficult to get a real consistant sight picture. In my experience, square post and rear sight work best for open sights.

TC

Edited by 40 Flint on 07-20-10 06:10 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Roundball 
Cannon
Posts: 22964
Roundball
07-20-10 07:32 AM - Post#879882    

    In response to 40 Flint

IMO, based on my own shooting with TC and GM barrels, and the fact that I use Goex 3F and like hot loads, 95grns of 3F is a terrible fire for a patch to survive and I'm shocked that yours are so pristine they could be used again.

At any rate, one other thing to try next time out while scratching your head is this:
Seat a spare lubed patch down first as a firewall, then seat your PRB normally...see it it makes any difference...you'll know in just a few shots.

Another thing to consider experimenting with is dropping back from a .535" to a .530" ball.
A .535" + a .020" patch is an awfully tight combo in a .540 bore, and while we expect that sort of a combo to normally tighten groups, stranger things have happened.
Roundball's ML Formula:
"Whompability...Across The Fields and In The Woods"


 
Billnpatti 
Cannon
Posts: 7193
Billnpatti
07-20-10 08:17 AM - Post#879890    

    In response to lonehunter

A sort of rule of thumb for starting on working up a load for your gun is to load the number of grains equil to your caliber. Therefore, if I were you, I'd drop my charge back to 55 grains for a start. Then work up in 5 grain increments until you find the load it likes. I always use an overpowder wad on my rifles but finding a hollow punch of the correct size (9/16") for a .54 is not easy. So, an alternative that is used quite often by target shooters is to pour about 30 grain volume equivalent of cornmeal or Cream of Wheat on top of your settled powder charge. This will not foul your barrel or cause any problems at all as some may think before trying it. What the cornmeal does is to provide a gas seal so that your muzzle velocities are more consistant. If you have a chronograph, you can shoot loads with cornmeal and loads without the cornmeal over the chronograph and you will see a noticible difference in your standard deviation of your velocities. The only down side of using cornmeal is that the stuff is toasted by the heat of the burning powder and you can smell it. The dang stuff can make you awfully hungry for cornbread. Give this idea a try and see if it helps. I think you will find that it will noticibly improve your groups.

There is a comercial product on the market that does the same thing as the cornmeal but is, in addition, a lubricant. I use it as a filler in my blackpowder cartridge gun (Sharps .45-120). It is called Puff-Lon. If you are interested, you can just Google Puff-Lon. I like the stuff a lot.

Edited by Billnpatti on 07-20-10 08:20 AM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
laffindog 
54 Cal.
Posts: 1785
07-20-10 08:22 AM - Post#879892    

    In response to 40 Flint

Yes, as mentioned, try FFg in her. It's the simple stuff that keeps you awake at night pondering "what am I missing"? (no pun intended..)

I have a Green Mountain barrel in .54 that will not shoot with any combination of FFFg but drives tacks with FFg. I also have a Colerain barreled rifle that insists on FFFg and won't group worth a darn with FFg. It's worth a try.

 
Roundball 
Cannon
Posts: 22964
Roundball
07-20-10 09:29 AM - Post#879912    

    In response to Billnpatti

  • Billnpatti Said:

"...but finding a hollow punch of the correct size (9/16") for a .54 is not easy..."




Sure it is...just Google ARCH Punches...they're everywhere.
I've bought a few...9/16", 5/8", and 11/16"...from a place in Maine and they're in the mailbox a couple days later.
Roundball's ML Formula:
"Whompability...Across The Fields and In The Woods"


 
BrownBear 
Cannon
Posts: 13673
BrownBear
07-20-10 10:26 AM - Post#879931    

    In response to lonehunter

You're getting lots of good advice about the gun and loads, and there's not much I can add to that.

But I'm wondering about the control system behind the gun at the shooting bench. Experiences with a friend of mine make me wonder, so this isn't a reflection on you. But 95 grains of 3f in a 54 is just stout enough that your gun can get a little uncomfortable if not braced and held "correctly" at the bench, and unconscious flinching can occur, especially in the follow-through after you've pulled the trigger and the prime has fired, but the ball hasn't left the bore yet. Lots of bad things can happen in those few microseconds.

My friend's targets were much like yours, and watching him shoot, he was using a low front rest and laying down real low on the bench with the hooked butt sucked real tight onto his should joint rather than actually out on his arm a little where it belongs. His gun was hurting him pretty good, even though he was trying to "suck it up" and endure the punishment.

I elevated his front rest so that he basically sat fully upright at the bench and his body could sway back a little with the recoil.

Then I set up a rear rest that he could rest his arm on to steady the butt, rather than resting the butt on the rest. It kept his arm horizontal so that the "pocket" for the hooked butt was actually out on his arm rather than sitting on the joint.

Last step was the important one. I sat down and shot a group using that setup with his rifle. My nice tight group gave him some confidence that the gun really would shoot better, and his first group was even better than mine! No more accuracy issues.

If none of this description fits what you're doing at the bench, I gave it my best shot, and carry on working with the rifle and loads.

 
The Parson 
40 Cal.
Posts: 499
The Parson
07-20-10 12:58 PM - Post#879972    

    In response to lonehunter

When I first got my TC I was having the same problem. I could not shoot a pattern no matter how hard I tried. Then I noticed -- my rear sight had play in it! It would move ever so slightly with the recoil of each shot.
I changed it out and my groups tightened up.

 
40 Flint 
50 Cal.
Posts: 1469
40 Flint
07-20-10 03:00 PM - Post#880009    

    In response to The Parson

You can tighten an adjustable sight by using a spring from a click type ink pen cut to length (trial and error) on one side of the sight.

TC

 
lonehunter 
58 Cal.
Posts: 2106
lonehunter
07-20-10 03:47 PM - Post#880018    

    In response to 40 Flint

Thanks for all the input from everyone, i was trying to get ideas from fresh minds and i thank you all this site is the best!!!
I have changed the sights, as suggested, ran up through the powder charges as suggested, tried FF as suggested, tried circle fly cards and felt wads, several lubes, patch material from .010-.022
swabbed between shots, not swabbed between shots.
starting to lean towards binding in the stock, shooter error (nut behind the butt) not ruling it out, but cant comprehend the two groups being as tight as they are, seems as tho it would be all over the place if it was human error, and no groups at all. I don't know but i will get another shooter to be sure. Thinking about treating it like a center fire, floating the barrel from the wedge forward and re bedding from the wedge to the tang. I WILL win this battle, have been wanting a .54 too long to give up. I will keep you posted as to any progress made.
Witnessed a colerain barrel that was doing similar, he was tired of fighting with it and replaced it with a rice, i may do the same eventually, but i need to figure this out so i can sleep at night, a rifle that is not accurate is nothing more than a stick that makes noise, and worthless to me.
thanks again!
James

 
Wick Ellerbe 
75 Cal.
Posts: 5640
Wick Ellerbe
07-20-10 04:51 PM - Post#880035    

    In response to lonehunter

Two things Lonehunter has not mentioned, is that this is a shallow groove 1-66 barrel. The grooves are no deeper than a standard T-C, and it is coned. It is acually a tad over coned, as if not careful the ball will twist the sprue a bit when loading. Just me, but for accuracy, I do not trust shallow groove, or coning, but his problem may lie elsewhere. I have shot the gun, very carefully bench rested, and got no better results than Lonehunter. If nothing else, Lonehunter has perseverance. He has burned much powder, and many balls with this rifle. I would have given up by now. Hell, I did on my Colrain. Thank God I did, I bought a Rice barrel, and now enjoy shooting again. Two outings on my range, and I had a winner.

 
Many Klatch 
69 Cal.
Posts: 3239
Many Klatch
07-20-10 05:09 PM - Post#880042    

    In response to Wick Ellerbe

Wick, some of the oldtimer Chunk Gun shooters at Friendship used to swear by plugging the barrel, urinating down it and letting it stand full over night. Said it tightened up the barrel considerable. I don't know if it works or not but if all else fails I guess you could just p&%* on it.

Many Klatch

 
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