Cyndi's view of the future...

First I want to thank you gents for this forum. You guys have a lot of knowledge. When I decided to expand my BP pistol horizons into rifles I did alot of research. Time after time a question I had would bring me to this forum. So I figured that I should just join this group as ya'll were already answering most of my questions.

One of the things that I worry about with the ever forward momentum of technology is the loss of old knowledge and availability of products.
Already we are haveing folks report dificulty geting real powder. Manufacturers going out of buisness or moving on to new projects and abandoning old tech. How soon will it be before we can no longer find percusion caps or replacement nipples or or or....? Just yesterday I was searching around online and I saw a company that was selling a conversion that would allow side locks to employ 209 primers and that put the fear of the gods in me. How long will it be before a standard issue cap lock can no longer be loaded due to a lack of loading materials? Will I be forced some day to convert my piece to a 209 primer system if I want to continue shooting?
This brings me to the unspeakable bullets...Will there come a day when thats all anyone who uses BP shoots?
Lead is banned in many places forcing guys to think out of the box and start experimenting with bismuth alloys. Bismuth!? I know how to refine lead from ore, but I have no clue how to refine bismuth nor do I have the knowledge to alloy the stuff, let alone properly for a bullet.

Then there are the overly sensitive bambi huggers that would bann all guns and hunting. Seems the no hunting gun controlers gain more foot hold every day. Will even our old style smoke poles become illegal some day? They bann our lead, make it so we can not publicly discuss the methods to manufacture powder, and our suppliers of (real) powder are drying up.

Then there is global politics....where it leads and what it means for gun ownership rights in the long run has me very worried.

This knowledge that we have is a disapearing science. I fear we are among the last few generations who will be able to hunt free as our ancestors did. Every one of us who knows something about this sport should take the time and write out everything they know and print it on acid free paper with archive quality ink and stash it back in a place that will not be ravaged by time to much. I fear that such information is going to be eventually banned and deleted wholesale from the net and books rounded up. We could very well be the last free generation for many generations. To be honest, I ain't feeling very free the last decade.

Anyways...

TL/DR version:
Thanks for the forum.
Cyndi has political opinions.
Some crazy idea about storing knowledge for future generations.

Hard to keep people from making and using things by themselves. There will more than likely always be a supply of scrap lead. Powder and parts can be home made if necessary. I think as long as there is a market, there will be a supplier. That is where it is up to us to preserve, promote and pass along our interest and knowledge in this activity.

psst ... you didn't hear this from me ...

teach a kid to start a fire using a flint and steel. then a few other kids will want to learn ... then one might ask you about the 'old gun' on the wall ...
you can see where we're going with this ...
teach the kid that (1) this is serious, so safety is important: there's no reset button if you mess up, and (2) this is fun ... now put them together and you have some serious fun.

as regard the political thing, some might ask how bad can it get ... really?

go to Munich, and in about a 45 minute drive there's a place called Dachau ... go there and close your eyes and listen very carefully.

the B'nai Brith would have you believe that it was just jews, but it was also intellectuals, the politically inconvenient, the 'sexually deviant' (as defined by the government) publishers, priests, dissidents (as defined by the government) ... in other words, anyone who wasn't getting with the program.

that's how bad it can get, and anyone who says that it can't happen here is either in on it, or so niaeve that they might as well be.

back to the original tirade: you can (and probably should) have plenty of the necessary stuff, but i think that what will make it more difficult for the SarahBrady types to fulfill their ultimate agenda is to have a group of young people who know that it's not a sin to own or shoot a firearm.

sorry about the tirade- left me climb down off the soapbox before i fall and can't get up.

just one guy's free opinion, and no doubt well worth the price...

Great post! There are many here that would agree with most of what you have said (me, being amongest them). Your idea of preserveing the old tech. need to be protected at individual levels not just by clubs and orgs. We need to preserve not only the tech. of fireams , but all other aspects of methods for cooking , using the tools that don,t need electric power etc. A good thing to do is to collect books and manuals and directions on using the old methods.
Its good to know there is still ladies around that have such a concept of how important this information will become as time passes.
Thank you for sharing your insights with the other members.
:thumbsup: :hatsoff:

cynthialee said:

Some crazy idea about storing knowledge for future generations.

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What knowledge are you talking about that isn't already stored in a book or on a disc?

Thanks for joining the Forum,, and your right, the knowledge in the archived pages alone could fill volumes, a fountain of priceless knowledge!

Don't fret too much. Go to a local Rendezvous and you'll see several generations hooked on the Olde Time stuff, the knowledge and fever is being passed on.

There's a German maker of caps/blasting caps and other demolition stuff (Dynamit Nobel) that decided a few years back that they didn't need to make ML caps anymore, the demand for their product was so high that 2 years later they put the machines back on line and they can't stay caught up with demand.
(FlintLocks don't need caps, :wink: )

The lead issue is just the Left Coast, they've tried to expand it but get shut down constantly. We need to be ever vigilante because they'll never stop, but Hunting Heritage Laws are being passed in many states, our is a decade old already here in MN.
(Buy molds and lead,,Casting your own is easy and a money saver!)

As far as our general Freedoms, Yeah it seems we're loosing ground, but when you compare the USA to the rest of the world,, we're doing quite well. Conceal carry, crossing State Borders, I can go stand on a soap box down on the corner and pretty much say what I want as long as I don't disturb others peace and don't cuss at people

Jack Wilson said:

cynthialee said:

Some crazy idea about storing knowledge for future generations.

Click to expand...

What knowledge are you talking about that isn't already stored in a book or on a disc?

Click to expand...

There's a whale of a difference between book knowledge and hand knowledge. The readers of the world debate and not much else. The doers of the world keep on doing things, and if no one learns from them, there's not a book in the world that knows as much as those gnarly old hands.

back in 1950, there was no place to buy nipples, flints etc. Only a few odd oldtimers shot those guns. When Disney's Davy Crockett hit the TV, Turner Kirkland's Dixie Gun Works was a fledgling company probably still run out of the trunk of his car. By the Centenniel of the Civil War, muzzle loading hype really got started. My Dad's deputy built a flintlock long rifle from Dixie parts around 1967 and let me shoot it. I was hooked. By 1973, I could buy a CVA Kentucky flint lock pistol kit for $34.00 in the local discount store. By 1977 muzzle loaders were nearly everywhere. Local weekend matches would have as many as 200 shooters. My first trip to a Match at Blue Ridge near Summit Station, PA and my shooter number was 283.

Muzzle loader involvement ebbs and flows. Right now it is waning. A movie or book may like Davy Crockett or Jeremiah Johnson may feed the "fever" all over again.

BTW, 209 converters for side lock percussion guns have been around since about 1985. In the 1970's a fellow developed and sold a cigarette lighter insert to fit in a flint hammer. Illegal in PA. Then there were the "nuclear frizzens" Butler Creek plastic sabots for round balls. there have been all manner of inventions to help folks push the muzzleloading "easy button." The ultimate insult was the modern inline.

Sure, remembering the "old stuff" and "old ways" are important. However, to be technically and historically correct, do you think folks will forego, cotton cleaning patches, cotton loading patches, lose the modern steel barrels in favor of iron? How many modern day traditional mtn men leave their fruit of the looms at home?

How many would lose the "bore butter", wonder lube and other commercial products to shoot as Davey and Daniel did.

I like paper target shooting. I compete against myself. I load from a shooting box, not a minimalist pouch and horn. MOA or better with a five shot group is the benchmark to beat. I'll use receiver sights, or open sights depending on the match. I'll weigh my lead balls for uniformity. Weigh out my powder charges in advance. It isn't traditional colonial era muzzleloading. But in the 1820's to 1880's, target shooting was indeed America's pastime.
So the portion of muzzle loading that I pursue is indeed traditional in a different sense.

Actually, in some regards we are living in the golden age of modern-day muzzleloading (and no, I'm not talking inlines or that ilk). Today we have an amazing choice of arms, and the parts to build them. Back 30 or 40 years ago, you'd look long and hard to find a swamped barrel, nowdays there are any number of barrel makers offering them. Same with locks--used to be the Siler was about the only choice that was reasonably "correct"----the other choice was Dixie Gun Works that may or may not be close to right. Look at the tremendous variety offered by lockmakers today, there's something that'll work for almost any style of gun. Same with the furniture to complete the build.

Just take a look in a Track of the Wolf catalog from just 10 years ago compared with today's catalog to see the difference.

As an aside, I agree with Zimmerstutzen's observation that traditional muzzleloading is down as far as the numbers of people participating---which is an interesting inverse ratio compared to the numbers and varieties of high-quality repro guns available today. People-wise, our quantity is down, but quality is up?

On the other hand, I did get a chuckle out of his last three paragraphs----I don't use cotton cleaning patches (I use tow on a worm), and I'd love to have a forged iron barrel (be nice to be wealthy enough to afford one). And I never wear Fruit of the Looms---it's ankle-length Canton flannel underdrawers for me when I'm doing my 'modern day traditional mtn man' thing. Don't have a shooting box, just a minimalist pouch & horn. No 'range rod' either, just a wiping stick with worm carried in the bore of my rifle. Patches are lubed with animal fat, and the gun is lubed with animal oil---no 'bore butter' or space-age lubes for me.

By the way, this is NOT a slam, and I'll bet money that Zimmerstutzen can shoot rings around me. Rather, it illustrates two different approaches to a traditional sport. Hopefully, as times change, there will be a renewed interest in all aspects of muzzleloading.


Rod

I remember when I was a kid I wanted to learn to be a gun smith. That was not something my folks could see me doing and I was gently directed to other pursuits.

I remember checking out every book I could find in my school library on guns when I was about 9 or 10. I knew the progression of diferant types of fire arm and their locks in a short amount of time. To bad my mom was not open minded enough to nurture that interest and dad would only teach me enough to shoot his pistols.

I became a profesional chef and then a house wife instead of a gun smith.

My interest in them was back burnered for many years but recently the bug has taken ahold again.

One of the crazy things I tried to do as a kid was recreating an ancient Chinese style small cannon that was a core of thick walled bamboo wraped in a number of layers of copper wire. Dad caught me at that plan and said no way Jose`.
To this day I am pretty sure it might have worked (as I knew I needed a light powder charge or it would blow up like a grenade) and my fuse likely would have been long enough to get away from it before it fired.
Yes I was a bit of a handful as a kid.

The "knowledge" stored in books and disks seem to change along with the political climate as well as other factors, I've noticed. A lot of stuff in textbooks is flat wrong as schools found out after buying new history books for our schools. :idunno:

This is an interesting and thought-provoking thread.

I believe our salvation would come from a great increase in participation in the sport by women. They make up half or more of the population, yet we have been largely unable to stimulate their interest in shooting. There is the usual "I'll do it once because he asked me to" involvement that normally doesn't last or the "too much gun for her size and ability" situation which is cruel and destroys any hope of making a convert. :cursing:

The great question is, how do we gain greater participation by women? I wish I knew the answer. I think the ladies on this forum would have better insight about this than us guys. Help!

BrownBear said:

Jack Wilson said:

cynthialee said:

Some crazy idea about storing knowledge for future generations.

Click to expand...

What knowledge are you talking about that isn't already stored in a book or on a disc?

Click to expand...

There's a whale of a difference between book knowledge and hand knowledge. The readers of the world debate and not much else. The doers of the world keep on doing things, and if no one learns from them, there's not a book in the world that knows as much as those gnarly old hands.

Click to expand...

Some "doers" actually write stuff down, or make a video, or post it for the public. You don't have to get all your knowledge from someone "orally".

Your questions and comments cover a big territory. I'll just say that the ml game, while it does have some current issues, is alive and well. There are scores of suppliers for all kinds of traditional ml needs. There are clubs in many places. Powder is available but shopping for and buying it not as simple as it once was. Shooting lead balls is not an issue in most parts of the U.S. Might be in Kalifornia, sadly.
Join NMLRA, read the articles and ads. And enjoy.

I wish I knew how to get womens attention to go to shooting. Most the women I know are completely brain washed by the anti gun violence crowd to the point they think that people with guns are some how inately wrong doers.
Most of the vegans I know are women. Not likely to get a vegan to shoot bambi for bambi burgers.

When I talk self defence for the home they look at me like I grew an extra head. "I will just call the police" is what I hear in response to such talk. Sure call the police and they might show up in 20 minutes. Plenty of time to be robed, raped, beaten or murdered, with plenty of time for the guy to get away scott free.

Most of the women I know have been thoroughly brain washed by the anti gun crowd.

cyndi, my daughter is a vegan and has been for 4 or 5 years. She doesn't hunt, but she likes to shoot.

Right now, shooting for her is lower on the list than her horse, her car and her boyfriend.

Actually, in some regards we are living in the golden age of modern-day muzzleloading ...

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Some people can't see the forest for the trees.

And likely never will. :hmm:

There is a lot of knowledge in books and on disks but there is big difference between reading about and actually being able to do some thing. A good friend (A Yakima Indian) used to lament that he had not been interested when his grand parents tried to teach him the old ways. He was one of the best woodsmen and hunters I have ever known, but still wished he had learned learned from his grand parents.

zimmerstutzen said:

cyndi, my daughter is a vegan and has been for 4 or 5 years. She doesn't hunt, but she likes to shoot.

Right now, shooting for her is lower on the list than her horse, her car and her boyfriend.

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For some people, after they retire, their hobby becomes their life. For some, that's shooting (any kind). For others, it's golf, fishing or... (fill in the blank)

For most people though, their hobby is lower on the list than their family, job, car, friends and all the other aspects of their lives.

Shooting is not something that most people want or need to do everyday, so it's not the daily focus of their lives, like some on this forum.

Before I had to retire, I, and later several of my students, taught sd to groups of women. Often we would be asked by a club or Sorority; these were often offered free of charge as a community service. Too often the college girls treated it as playtime and didn't really care how to defend themselves. I eventually sickened of the phrase that was repeated over and over, "but I couldn't do that to someone". My response was always, "buy good insurance and stay at home".

Eventually I learned that anything free - and anything of a serious nature brought up to coeds - was not valued at all. We began offering 4 complete sessions a year taught by a phenomenal 60 plus year old female student of mine and charging for them on a reserved basis. It worked. We had guest LE speakers, covered firearms and shooting.

What I'm getting at is that you have to find a way to break through that PC, Pollyanna giddiness in order to get their attention. Once you do, especially if it is (and it really is) a lot of fun; you have an interested participant.

BP and muzzle guns, being historical and visually benign, are often accepted more easily than modern equivalents. Hunting would be great but if simple shooting and enacting is all you get, then that's plenty.