Swamped or not?

roundball said:

My experience has been that a heavier (usually straight) barrel gives more precision at the range...hangs on the target better / less muzzle wander for me, etc.
A swamped barrel has been better for hunting, primarily at it relates to balance / handling and less weight while still hunting, carrying / handling a ML for a few hours.

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The .40cal Late Lancaster I use mainly for economical range shooting has a straight GM 38" barrel...and I found that I wanted more weight out front for more precision...if I could do it over again I'd get a 42" barrel.

But it is what it is so I replaced the ramrod with one made of solid brass to add another pound or so out front and it really settled the muzzle down significantly...blends right in with the brass furniture, looks good and shoots like a laser

One of the reasons swamped barrelled LRs are popular, is that many of us are just plain outta shape. In my younger days, my squirrel rifle w/ a .45 cal straight 7/8" bbl X 42" lg didn't pose any problems...it does now. We don't exercise and most of us don't have physical jobs and then we go to the range or go hunting and use a swamped bbl because it's more comfortable. Also w/ a RH shooter, the prop arm is the weaker left and I think our left arms are becoming weaker. Just the opposite for a LH shooter. I build all my LRs w/ swamped bbls because they sell more readily, most buyers can handle them better and they also look better. Often wonder how some of those heavy LRs of yore were shot by men who evidently were shorter judging from the shorter LOPs....the answer ...they were in better shape.....Fred

How about a straight tapered barrel? They are HC and were used by well known builders. Couldn't they provide the overall weight required for targets and still provide a modicum of balance needed or wanted when in the field? Anyone have "first hand" experience shooting/hunting with a straight tapered barrel?

Straight tapered bbls are in essence similar to swamped bbls but w/ the disadvantge of a taller front sight. The last half stock Hawken I made w/ a tapered 36" bbl worked out fine...excellent balance and weight.....Fred

I agree with Fred. I have a Bucks county rifle in .45 with a 15/16" to 13/16" tapered GRRW barrel. Nice offhand rifle but needs a slightly taller front sight than if it had a flare at the muzzle.

Gentlemen, there is a lot of theory going on as to why a swamped barrel might work out better for target shooting, but theory is worthless in light of actual facts. I shot competitively for many years against, what amounted to professional, shooters from the Army, Navy, Air force, and Marine teams as well as many very serious amateurs. And none of them ever showed up at a match without a rifle in the 14 to 18 pound class for off-hand shooting.

Now because we are discussing this on a muzzleloading forum I will refrain from getting into the details of the rifles but in their normal or ”˜service’ configuration they weighed 9 ½ pounds. Everyone added as much lead into the butt stock and under the handguards as possible. Did those rifles balance well? Hell no, but all the weight helped them hold steady. The Arm Services teams had dozens of armorers and techs. experimenting with every configuration of barrel shape and weight you can image and for target shooting they chose straight heavy barrels for OFF HAND shooting. Now they are shooting fluted straight heavy barrels, not for the reduction in weight but for enhanced cooling and rigidity. So theorize to your heart’s content, but exhaustive research has already been done and the swamped barrel didn’t make the cut in this particular arena.

If you are having trouble holding a heavy rifle for the duration of a match, and yes your conditioning is paramount, you may need to work on how you are holding the rifle. All the competitors I knew worked hard in dry fire practice, especially for off hand shooting, to refine their position so they could finish the course of fire well.

The effect is called polar moment of inertia, and it is definitely real physics.

Gizamo, just speaking for myself, nothing, but nothing beats a swamped barrel for hunting, even in a small caliber. If I were to build an off hand rifle meant for targets, there's no question I'd get a straight barrel at least 42".

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This is correct from my experience, in hunting, target competitions, and the service. My hunting rifle is a swamped, 38" Colerain barrel in .54. I can carry that all day every day, no worries, shoots straight too.

My .40 in a straight 13/16" barrel, 42" is heavier than my .54 barrel, and is for targets, especially when shooting offhand. It's very steady being muzzle heavy as to its balance. Overall it's not that much heavier than the .54 but the balance of the piece makes it strain harder on the hand when it's being carried on a long walk. It's a leverage sort of thing with it's balance point farther forward than I like to hold when walking in the woods.

So if you are thinking hunting gun, go with the swamped. The Germans seems to have a real penchant for this, often having a very light rifle in a rather heavy caliber, and having to deal with heavy recoil. Their idea is the rifle is carried all day, and recoil is felt for but a moment. :grin:

LD

I can't get the image of an international free match rifle with an swamped octagon barrel out of my head....might have to try it on my M-1A :rotf:

Really apples and oranges though. Allot of things that are critical to centerfire accuarcy are not so much in muzzleloading and vice versa. When you have tiny pills moving 2,900 to 3,400 f.p.s. in a 1 in 7" or 9" rotation harmonics etal. are allot more critical than slow moving and spinning round balls. Same with the rimfire crowd....and they use muzzle weights.

I agree with what you are saying about weight in the butt and forestock as it keeps it over the shooters hands and feet. Same kind of concept in a swamped barrel on the muzzleloader....shifts weight back...the muzzle is flared so the sights don't have to be so tall, not to add weight.

I don't believe straight is any more accurate than swamped or tapered if minimum cross section of barrel being equal....now weight of barrel is another matter.... shooting a ML with a long heavy straight barrel is different than shooting a heavy barrel CF rifle....it's about where the weight is....and isn't. Enjoy, J.D.

My post addressed the conjecture that a swamp barreled rifle would be as useful, if not better, than a heavy straight barreled rifle for target work. To that issue I pointed out that the experimentation had long since be done and the conclusion was that heavy straight barrel was found superior for is “polar moment of inertia” capabilities, as GreenMt alluded to, not for any inherent accuracy that the shape itself might impart to the projectile.

That makes it more clear. :thumbsup:

I understand and agree the the external shape being swamped does not contribute to inherent accuarcy.

Do you agree that it doesn't detract from accuarcy either, all other factors being equal....i.e. rifling, minimum diameter, etc.?

I believe any of the quality barrel mfgs. swamped profiles to be as accuarate as their straights....again all other factors being equal.

I wonder what Green Mountain's take on this is.

Great discussion here, J.D. :hatsoff:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of swamped barrels for hunting, but if I need to hunt the elusive x- ring, straight is the way to go.

just one opinion...

great topic - I learned a lo here! I only shoot targets andwa sort of craving for a gun with a swamped or tapered barrel ... now I am changing this view .... :hmm:

If you want a rifle with a swamped barrel and it fits the style/school of the rifle, buy it.

It will be no less accurate than a straight barreled gun...as long as you do your part....and it will look better and be worth more.

You may consider buying one with a heavier profile if you want more weight for your style of target shooting but it will be no less accurate.

If you build a target gun in the style of say....a Isaac Haines....and you build it with a heavy straight barrel, it will always be a Haines with a heavy straight barrel. If you build it in say a .40 calibre a "B" weigth swamped barrel it will be as accurate and it will handle better, appeal to more people and be worth more if you ever decide to sell it.

Just the facts. Enjoy, J.D.

MSW said:

For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of swamped barrels for hunting, but if I need to hunt the elusive x- ring, straight is the way to go.

just one opinion...

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No, it's the vast majority's opinion...LOL...and hands on experience by the majority of shooters with both styles doesn't lie...there's no match for a muzzle heavy rifle when target shooting
:thumbsup:

roundball said:

No, it's the vast majority's opinion...LOL...and hands on experience by the majority of shooters with both styles doesn't lie...there's no match for a muzzle heavy rifle when target shooting
:thumbsup:

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:bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull:

You've got to be kidding.....


I have to ask, though I realize that you'll never see this post,

But how is it that 7 responders to this post prefer straight barrels for offhand target work as it relates to muzzleloading, vers 10 responders that prefer swamped/tapered barrels for offhand target work as it relates to muzzleloading.

Is it just that we have no experience in this matter, or do you have that many people in the lead box ?


Somebody please copy my post so he can see it.

ApprenticeBuilder said:

roundball said:

No, it's the vast majority's opinion...LOL...and hands on experience by the majority of shooters with both styles doesn't lie...there's no match for a muzzle heavy rifle when target shooting
:thumbsup:

Click to expand...

:bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull: :bull:

You've got to be kidding.....


I have to ask, though I realize that you'll never see this post,

But how is it that 7 responders to this post prefer straight barrels for offhand target work as it relates to muzzleloading, vers 10 responders that prefer swamped/tapered barrels for offhand target work as it relates to muzzleloading.

Is it just that we have no experience in this matter, or do you have that many people in the lead box ?


Somebody please copy my post so he can see it.

Click to expand...

Inquiring minds wanna know...

MSW said:

For what it's worth, I'm a big fan of swamped barrels for hunting, but if I need to hunt the elusive x- ring, straight is the way to go.

just one opinion...

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Even for the Seneca Run? If you have to carry it, run with it, swing it offhand on game while hunting, ski or snowshoe with it, or even hunt or carry it for any length of time - the swamped barrel with the reduced weight and improved balance is, IMHO, the way to go.

If you have a table to set it on - by all means use a straight, massive barrel. But then if you're benching a swamped barrel by a good maker you'll likely also shoot pretty good groups.

Another thing to realise about this offhand shooting thing.

Comparing the the modern centerfire shooting dicipline to the muzzleloading dicipline is literally comparing apples to snow plows.

The diciplines are nothing alike, a very small percentage of muzzleloaders will make it to Friendship and compete on the lines there trussed up in a straight jacket such as the centerfire group does.

As was mentioned earlier, go ahead and lug a 14 or 15 pound rifle along on a trailwalk or seneca run and see how you fare.