Cheap caplock saftey

Why would you walk through the woods with a loaded and capped gun?

I've been thinking about this a lot. As a newbie to ML, my intention was to hike with my gun loaded, but not cap until I got into the tree stand OR if I happen to spot a deer, I'll cap the gun while hiding behind a tree or boulder..... then shoot the deer.

I see no reason to walk around with a cap on the gun. If you were hunting with a modern CF rifle, that would be akin to hiking with a round in the chamber and the safety set to the firing position. Nobody that I know would do that.

So what if you spot a deer and you miss a shot because the gun wasn't capped? You miss an opportunity.

If we really wanted better odds, we'd just shoot the scoped 30-06 or the 300 Mag and be done with it. I thought part of the attraction of hunting with a ML was more about enjoying the hunt. So you miss an opportunity with an uncapped gun - big deal. Whats your life worth? What about somebody elses life?

Why would you walk through the woods with a loaded and capped gun?

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In the Ozarks, hunting deer is not a lot unlike quail hunting. Now you see them, now you don't. You must be ready at all times.

IMHO the safest way to carry a caplock rifle is at half-cock.

With a leather pad (or no pad) under a lowered hammer all it would take to possibly have an accidental discharge would be for something to partially pull the hammer back to just under half-cock allowing the leather pad to fall free. When the hammer falls it would/could fire the gun.

If the hammer is already at half-cock and gets partially pulled back even farther it will still only fall back to half-cock unless the tumbler/sear is damaged. If the hammer is accidentally pulled all the way back to full-cock the trigger must then be pulled to release it and fire the gun.

Old school CF hammer guns (pre-transfer-bar) also used a half-cock as the only "safety" and the half-cock position was the recommended way to carry them when loaded.
I will continue to carry my capped percussion guns at half-cock, finger outside the trigger guard, muzzle pointed in a safe direction, and feel perfectly safe.

but the safest, and handiest, way to carry a capped rifle is with the hammer all the way down resting on the cap.

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WOW! :shake:
Ya know, I'm not worried about brush or a twig. I'm worried about my footing and the possibility of stumbling or a fall. That put's the "probability" of smacking the hammer into a much higher bracket.

If you whack the hammer with it resting on the cap it probably (I never say "never" :wink: ) will not set off the cap. .

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Those "Probably" odds are already too high for me, I'm glad you said that about the never say never thing

ChrisHarris said:

Why would you walk through the woods with a loaded and capped gun?,,,,
,,,, that would be akin to hiking with a round in the chamber and the safety set to the firing position.

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Well Chris, your's is ultimalty the safest way, but Deer isn't the only thing folks will hunt. There's small game like rabbit and of course birds with smoothbore and shot that require a "Be ready-snap shot".
The halfcock safety on a ML side lock (in proper working condition) is just as reliable as those on modern guns.
The primary issue is loosing the cap, but that can/needs to be addressed prior to the hunt for proper function too,

Jethro224 said:

Old school CF hammer guns (pre-transfer-bar) also used a half-cock as the only "safety"

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This is exactly the point I was making.

There nothing safer than a "blocking device"...(transfer bar, Kap Kover, Hammer Stall, etc) and its why modern guns all evolved away from just the half cock to the "blocking devices" like transfer bars, etc...to eliminate A/Ds.
:v

Your thread reminded me of an account of the Union Army's march from Washington out to Manassas for the first battle. Some troops had to move through brush and their muskets were capped. Resulted in several accidental shootings when the hammers snagged, never made it to half-cock and fell back down. I wouldn't trust that piece of leather to stay put should it happen to your gun.

roundball said:

Jethro224 said:

Old school CF hammer guns (pre-transfer-bar) also used a half-cock as the only "safety"

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This is exactly the point I was making.

There nothing safer than a "blocking device"...(transfer bar, Kap Kover, Hammer Stall, etc) and its why modern guns all evolved away from just the half cock to the "blocking devices" like transfer bars, etc...to eliminate A/Ds.
:v

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:hmm: I always thought lawsuits and the "it's not MY fault" denial of responsibility were the reason why transfer bars and blocking devices were invented.

When used correctly a half-cock IS a blocking device. The problem is that people don't always use it correctly.
A transfer bar is actually an UNbloking device that only allows the force of the hammer to be applied to the primer when a finger is on the trigger. Anyone who accidentally shoots someone else with a transfer bar gun had their finger on the trigger = no BS lawsuit claiming "it just went off".

A frizzen stall on a flinter can't hurt. The flinter should be on half-cock anyway. Carrying a flinter on full-cock would be unsafe even with a frizzen stall in addition to being hard on the main spring. Carrying hammer-down would make it necessary to prime and close the frizzen before a shot could be taken.

The Kap Kover would also not hurt if the lock is on half-cock anyway. Just a redundant safety device. On full cock or hammer-down, even with the Kap Kover, an A/D could happen. If your finger can easily remove it so could a twig.

Cheap Gun Safety =
1. Every gun is a loaded gun.
2. Muzzle awareness/control.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
5. Never rely on your gun's "safety".
:thumbsup:

Jethro224 said:

roundball said:

Jethro224 said:

Old school CF hammer guns (pre-transfer-bar) also used a half-cock as the only "safety"

Click to expand...

This is exactly the point I was making.

There nothing safer than a "blocking device"...(transfer bar, Kap Kover, Hammer Stall, etc) and its why modern guns all evolved away from just the half cock to the "blocking devices" like transfer bars, etc...to eliminate A/Ds.
:v

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:hmm: I always thought lawsuits and the "it's not MY fault" denial of responsibility were the reason why transfer bars and blocking devices were invented.

When used correctly a half-cock IS a blocking device. The problem is that people don't always use it correctly.
A transfer bar is actually an UNbloking device that only allows the force of the hammer to be applied to the primer when a finger is on the trigger. Anyone who accidentally shoots someone else with a transfer bar gun had their finger on the trigger = no BS lawsuit claiming "it just went off".

A frizzen stall on a flinter can't hurt. The flinter should be on half-cock anyway. Carrying a flinter on full-cock would be unsafe even with a frizzen stall in addition to being hard on the main spring. Carrying hammer-down would make it necessary to prime and close the frizzen before a shot could be taken.

The Kap Kover would also not hurt if the lock is on half-cock anyway. Just a redundant safety device. On full cock or hammer-down, even with the Kap Kover, an A/D could happen. If your finger can easily remove it so could a twig.

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:hmm:
So I guess we could tell Marlin, Remington, Savage, et al, to save money by discontinuing the practice of putting push button cross bolt safeties on their rifle cause a twig might push one back the other way?
:grin:

necchi said:

but the safest, and handiest, way to carry a capped rifle is with the hammer all the way down resting on the cap.

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WOW! :shake:
Ya know, I'm not worried about brush or a twig. I'm worried about my footing and the possibility of stumbling or a fall. That put's the "probability" of smacking the hammer into a much higher bracket.

If you whack the hammer with it resting on the cap it probably (I never say "never" :wink: ) will not set off the cap. .

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Those "Probably" odds are already too high for me, I'm glad you said that about the never say never thing

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Oh dear, where are we going with this.
Necci, ye said:

Ya know, I'm not worried about brush or a twig.

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I'll not repeat the "lunacy" thing :wink: but that comment comes close to earning it.
Any gun handling has it's inherent risks. Muzzle loaders are inherently more risky to handle than the modern stuff. And [pardon the digression] within the ml inventory, flintlocks are even more inherently risky.
Twigs can be deadly. It is very east to have a twig pull on a hammer and it not be noticed. I recall one time I went ml hunting, carrying my flint rifle and wearing a Ruger Old Army in an open top holster. The ROA was loaded and capped. The hammer was resting in a notch between cylinders. At the end of the day back at campe I found the revolver at full cock :shocked2: making it easily firable. I never noticed the twig that did that to my gun. I also never ventured afield again with that gun in anything but a full flap holster.
Yes, "probably". I believe we can never say never to anything in life and that is especially true with gun safety.
BTW: I'm considering redoing the test myself.
I understand my comments, on the surface, seem counterintuitive and hard to accept. This is no different than when that old article was first published in Muzzle Blasts.

Where are you getting lunacy?

Just because it's in a magazine artical it's Gospel?

I stay fully aware of my lock and hammer when walking through brush. I'm fully consious of any contact in, near and around my lock as my hand is there. I don't worry about a stray twig because I'm in actually aware that I have a loaded sidelock gun in my hands.

Too each his own.
You walk through the woods your way, I'll do it my way.
My way will involve haveing my lock in proper, good working condition and the hammer at halfcock saftey

When you re-do that test yourself, in addition to smacking the hammer, try thumbing the hammer back to just before half-cock and letting it drop from there on a live cap.

Seems an odd issue to debate when the notion that a half cock position is NOT really a safety has been so well established for so long, but to each their own...none of us will ever be hunting together so that approach to safety won't ever endanger me
:thumbsup:

roundball said:

:hmm:
So I guess we could tell Marlin, Remington, Savage, et al, to save money by discontinuing the practice of putting push button cross bolt safeties on their rifle cause a twig might push one back the other way?
:grin:

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If the rifles in question are hammer guns with a half-cock position the push-button safety is redundant.
Like I said before, IF people used the half-cock position correctly, and IF we didn't live in a society where "it's not MY fault" and lawsuits are decided by folks without a clue, redundant safety devices would not be needed. Those devices are only there to protect the manufacturers from being sued.
If we are talking about hammerless guns then, yes, a cross bolt safety is needed. I am not aware of any traditional muzzleloaders that fit that description tho.

roundball said:

Seems an odd issue to debate when the notion that a half cock position is NOT really a safety has been so well established for so long, but to each their own...none of us will ever be hunting together so that approach to safety won't ever endanger me
:thumbsup:

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I once came about 6 inches from having my head blown off by a kid with a modern pump gun with push-button safety who "thought the safety was on". You trust 'em if you want.

Jethro224 said:

roundball said:

Seems an odd issue to debate when the notion that a half cock position is NOT really a safety has been so well established for so long, but to each their own...none of us will ever be hunting together so that approach to safety won't ever endanger me
:thumbsup:

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I once came about 6 inches from having my head blown off by a kid with a modern pump gun with push-button safety who "thought the safety was on". You trust 'em if you want.

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Completely different issue altogether...nothing to do with the discussion at hand at all.

Even your conviction that your little half cock notch is a solid safety still requires you to actually engage the hammer in the half cock notch position, eh

roundball said:

Completely different issue altogether...nothing to do with the discussion at hand at all.

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Well, you brought up the push button safeties. :surrender:

roundball said:

Even your conviction that your little half cock notch is a solid safety still requires you to actually engage the hammer in the half cock notch position, eh

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Which is exactly the point I have been trying to make.

Like I said before, IF people used the half-cock position correctly, and IF we didn't live in a society where "it's not MY fault" and lawsuits are decided by folks without a clue, redundant safety devices would not be needed.

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Where are you getting lunacy?

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An ebiggs post.

Not gospel from a magazine. But soundly tested and written by experienced and respected ml'ers.
Where did you get your 'facts' that might prove this concept incorrect?

I'm not trying to prove it incorrect.
The magazine isn't a tech manual, it's written for entertainment.
If you'd like I could probably find several sources from current factory sources advising to use the half cock saftey, but it's common enough knowledge I'm not going to waste my time. I don't care what the old timers in the ML game did, they got hurt and rules and saftey issues changed because of it.
If that's what you want to do go right ahead, I simply expressed amazment that this is/was actually written and accepted.
Again, do what you want, knock yourself out, have fun. I'm quite content in the knowledge I'll never be hunting with people that leave the hammer down on a cap.

It's not something I'll endorse.
Please don't twist my comments into some kind of challange or argument because I won't participate.
Bye-Bye.