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Double Ball Load .50 T/C Hawken

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My guess would be that the 100gr load with one ball would be a powerfull load and it would have enough poop to share with a second ball out to a reasonable range,the added ball will increase the pressure and increase the steam so to speak just like going to a conical three times the weight of a single ball it would seem? the accurate range will probably be a bit less than a single ball from the tests a friend did with a double .40 he hunted with for a few years at 50-75 yds it might be a real trauma package:idunno:
 
I know that roundball is just posting the data that TC has printed but I've always wondered where TC came up with that information?

For instance, TC says 100 grains of 2Fg powder under some unknown ball size that I'll guess was a .490 produced 2052 MV / 1637 ME.
Personally, I've always thought that TC was a bit optimistic with their values.

When Lyman tested a very similar barrel to the one TC uses they show a little different picture.

The Lyman BLACK POWDER HANDBOOK in their testing of a 28", 1:48 twist barrel shooting 2Fg GOEX powder shows that a 100 grain powder load produced 1729 FPS and 1175 ft/lb ME. (P 190).

Even using a 120 grain load of GOEX 3Fg powder in that barrel with that ball only produced a velocity of 2015 FPS and 1596 Ft/Lb ME.

To provide some additional information comparing slugs that weigh about twice as much as a single roundball, here's a look to see what Lyman got.

For the results of firing a 350 grain Buffalo HP Conical.

A 100 grain load of GOEX 2Fg powder sent that one downrange at 1503 FPS with 1756 ft/lbs ME.
That's a loss in velocity of 226 FPS but a gain of 581 ft/lb ME as compared with a single roundball. (p191)

Shooting a 370 grain Lyman Maxi in the same barrel using 100 grains of GOEX 2Fg powder produced a velocity of 1400 FPS and 1611 ft/lb ME.
That's a loss of 329 FPS but a gain of 436 ft/lb ME as compared with the single roundball. (p192)

This kinda shows why shooting one roundball is great fun but shooting two roundballs loaded together or a single heavier slug tends to kick the poo out of your shoulder. :grin:
 
Larry in the WV 2011 hunting regs. page 26 it says" In the muzzleloader season,only single shot muzzleloaders including ***lines of .38 cal. or larger are legal. Telescopic sights are legal. A firearm that has been converted into a muzzleloader by use of a plug,or a double-barreled or swivel-barreled muzzleloader is illegal for deer hunting during the muzzleloading season." You are correct as it doesn't say anything against a double ball load. The only thing I can find concering more than one ball would be concerning shotguns stated on page 24 saying " a shotgun loaded with solid ball ammunition." If you try it let us know how it worked for you, Dan.
 
Yep, you're right about not needing recoil. I'm not gonna try double loading the .62 Hawken or the Fremont.
 
I've shot 2 balls with jus one ball patched...recoil was no different.
course with 2 balls an 2 patches....maybe.. :haha:
 
roundball said:
Rat Trapper said:
"...It's cause I think some do more shooting with the key board, than at the range..."

No question about it...

I don't really see what shooting at the range has to do with discussion of the effectiveness of a double ball load for hunting. But I guess you guys do. Once I saw that the two ball load out of that .50 cal consistantly printed about 1 to 1.5 inches apart at 50 yards I didn't feel any more need to kill paper. They worked fine with fixed traditional sights by using a center hold instead of a six-o'clock hold on a 4 inch aiming point.

Meanwhile here are a couple of more thoughts on the use of these loads for hunting:
While Muzzle Energy is frequently used as a guide it matters most if the ball or balls stop in the animal. If you get complete penetration the ball carries some portion of its energy through the deer and into the woods beyond. The ideal load for delivering energy to the game is one that delivers all of its energy in the vitals of the target animal and has just enough left to break through the hide on the far side --- leaving two holes for blood to flow out of and makeing tracking easier.

Of course a double ball load through the boiler room pretty mush eliminates the need for any tracking! :wink:

Modern cartridge rifle hunting bullets and self defense pistol bullets are designed to expand. As the frontal area of the bullet increases it sheds energy in the animal.A two ball load not only has a bit more ME to start with than a single ball at a higher velocity--they obviously have twice the frontal area of a single ball.

The two ball load also makes two parallel wound canals. Think of those pictures you have seen of the hole in the ballistic geletin left by a single bullet. Now imagine two of those side by side and the resulting hydostatic shock in the vital organs.

I'm just putting these out a things to consider when you start thinking about hunting loads rather than target loads.
Gary
 
FRS said:
roundball said:
Rat Trapper said:
"...It's cause I think some do more shooting with the key board, than at the range..."
No question about it...
I don't really see what shooting at the range has to do with discussion of the effectiveness of a double ball load for hunting. But I guess you guys do.
Because its obvious from some comments that some individuals really have no or very little experience killing big game under a variety of hunting conditions and distances. Or maybe you could explain your statement further?


"...it matters most if the ball or balls stop in the animal..."

Actually that doesn't matter at all...a ball slowing down and stopping inside the animal simply means it didn't have enough energy to maintain a good head of steam and create a full body width wound channel and maximum trauma.
In addition, a marginal/weak load has nothing left to accommodate a deer starting to turn and suddenly putting a large bone/shoulder in the way before the ball gets there.
And you make no allowance for distance...your general comment means a ball would slow down and stop inside at animal at 25yds the same as it would at 100yds for example.

"...If you get complete penetration the ball carries some portion of its energy through the deer and into the woods beyond..."
So what? And at what range? 25yds? 100yds?
It doesn't "take away" from the energy that was dumped inside the animal...it simply means that the ball had more than enough energy to create a full body width wound channel with maximum trauma across the full width of the animal, compared to one slowing down and stopping partway through.
 
Stumpkiller said:
You don't get somethin for nuttin. If you're getting 1,800 fps with one ball you will get nowhere near as much velocity pushing twice as much weight out the bore with the same powder. Not half, though, because the pressure will be much greater.

I'm a fine one to talk about math, but we need to understand the relationship between velocity and energy. Velocity is the more important of the two IF we can increase the velocity as much as we want to. In this discussion we can double the mass, but we can't double the velocity, so increased mass takes on much more importance.

From a ballistics calculator, with numbers rounded to show the relationship, not actual data:

180gr RB at 1800fps=1295fpe
180gr RB at 1900fps=1443fpe
180gr RB at 2100fps=1763fpe
180gr RB at 2400fps=2303fpe

360gr Dbl RB at 1500fps=1799fpe

From the calculator we can see that 100fps increases don't give us a whopping increase in energy. If we could get to 2100fps, we could equal the load with greater mass, and we would have to get much higher velocity to really pale the energy of the double RB load.

Pressure will increase with the double RB, but no more than with an equal conical, so it's not really a factor in anything.

As long as the two RB print close together and can completely pass through game at the ranges you would be hunting at, you would be getting two more holes for an increase in pressure and recoil (neither is a problem). That seems like a good deal.

At longer range, or if accuracy suffers, it probably isn't such a great deal.
 
I don't always agree with everything Roundball says but in this post he is absolutely RIGHT and sadly so is Rattrapper about the keyboard shooters.
Deadeye
 
I can't find anywhere in my hunting handbook where shooting two balls is illegal in Ohio, I just question the accuracy and consistancy of such practice... even so I may have to try it. I've read somewhere in the Rev. war this was a common practice for the troops on the frontline..I have many books, just not sure which passage it was....
 
Zonie said:
I know that roundball is just posting the data that TC has printed but I've always wondered where TC came up with that information?

Well it's pretty simple, that page is not in a T/C manual new or old.
I don't have any idea why he say's it comes from TC.
Perhaps saying it's from TC somehow validates the data beyond what or whom ever has it in a book. It's a silly lie.

FWIW, Here in MN we are required to use only one projectile CF or ML. No Buckshot or Buck-n-ball allowed.
The only time I've seen double ball loads used have been at rendezvous with some joker trying to be funny, of course the target or shot is removed from the scoring.
 
necchi said:
Well it's pretty simple, that page is not in a T/C manual new or old.
I don't have any idea why he say's it comes from TC.

Au contraire. I've seen it myself, and it's still in one of the manuals available in pdf from TC.

I'm not on my own computer and don't have the link at hand, so you need to do a little research on their site. And post a retraction when you're done.
 
Ok, I'l recind my statement with apology when I see it, I've looked and couldn't find a page 11 that has this stuff.
The name of the handbook has been asked for a total of 6 times in two threads.
 
I have also read this with my own eyes. It is real. :) May have been in a TC manual for a rifle I bought years ago. But it is real. Larry Wv
 
necchi said:
The name of the handbook has been asked for a total of 6 times in two threads.

Probably because it always seems that at about this point it degrades to name calling and the interesting threads get locked. :shake:

Very possible he has you blocked and doesn't see the requests.
 
Another reference to it from another link, but the links are old.


At any rate, it seems to have existed at one time, but won't be found on TC's site.
 
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