Just got back from the range today.

Just got back from the range today. I was shooting grandson's 50 cal. CVA mountain rifle 1/32 rate of twist with new adjustable sights.
At 50 yds.and 60 Gr. of Goex powder the gun was still putting round balls approx: 6 inches high of the x ring on a 6 inch target. Have the rear sights screwed all the way down.
Had to quit before I could try 75 yds shooting to see if the RB would drop into the x ring.
Thinking of buying a LEE REAL 320 Gr. bullet mold and see how that performs in the gun.
Being a fast rate of twist and a heavier bullet, wondering if it would drop into the target at the same powder charge.
Thanks for all imput.

If it is grouping well I would only consider the sights at this point. Raising (replacing) the front sight will lower the POI.
Actually, a good group with round balls at that twist rate is very interesting. Not likely you will keep that grouping with heavy charges however.
Don't buy that mould yet, try changing sights first.

I have a Lyman Great Plains Hunter barrel that shoots the Lee REAL bullets very well using 90 grains of 3f Goex and a lubed Wonder Wad, so I don't think you need to drop the powder charge down any. The key is finding out which conical and powder charge is the most accurate out of your rifle though, but I can tell you that the addition of the Wonder Wads to any of the bullets I have tried tightened the groups. Try several different weights of the REAL bullets if you can, I've gotten very good results with the 250 grain examples. Good luck, shoot safe, often and in the 10 ring.

Your right about keeping the grouping with heavier powder charges. Might go South on me with those shallow grooves and that fast twist.
I would like to up the charge to at least 70 gr. of BP.
I was thinking about trying the 320 Gr. REAL Bullet and seeing how that worked before changing to a taller front sight.
Oh well..half the fun is working up a good load and sticking to it.
Thanks for your replies.

Shallow grooves are always your CLUE that this barrel is designed to shoot lead conicals- NOT PRBs. You can shoot a PRB in it, but you need a very tight patch and ball combination, and then you have to work with the powder charge to get the best accuracy. Once you find a charge that works, you have to be very careful to NOT deviate very much- high or low- in the volume of powder you use.

Don' try to use too heavy a conical in these guns. They are built to take the pressure, but the stocks are usually not designed to handle the recoil forces well, and you will be hurting your upper arm needlessly. You don't need more than the 250 grain bullet to kill game. Use the wads to protect your bullet base, and seal the gases from the bullet, and you will get fine accuracy. Stick with using FFg Black powder, rather than FFFg BP, which provide a sharper recoil. The Substitute powders kick worse, so avoid them. The worst thing a hunter can do is use a rifle that hurts him. It creates a "flinch" when none existed before, and leads to inaccurate placement of the bullet on game. A RB in a RB barrel is all that is needed to kill deer. :hatsoff:

Shallow grooves are always your CLUE that this barrel is designed to shoot lead conicals- NOT PRBs

Click to expand...

Paul, gotta disagree a bit with that statement. In theory, I understand what you are saying.
But, these days, shallow grooves more likely just mean a manufacturer was simply working fast and lazy with his button rifling machine. Also, I do know some shooters who believe shallow rifling with thin patches is the way do go for accuracy. Not a universally accepted theory but, in this game, there are more ideas than sand grains on a beach.

YOu can get great accuracy from a shallow grooved barrel, with a tight fitted LB and a thin patch well lubed.

I did it with my first POS gun made in Spain. It had VERY shallow grooves, and only a Hint of lands- less than 1/64" wide. Groove diameter was .451- no attempt to try to measure the bore diameter, as they were so small in width to get a good reading. Groove depth was barely .005". I eventually settled on a load of 55 grains of FFFg Goex powder. Out to 50 yards you could not ask for better groups.

However, I would not consider that a "Hunting " load, for deer, and if I stuffed more powder in the barrel, the thin( .010") patches would tear. At that time, I did not have, nor know about using OP wads in rifles, so I don't know if those would have helped me shoot heavier loads or not.

I have since become a "believer" in the benefits of using OP wads whenever using large powder charges( 70 grains and more) of FFFg Goex, or when using those substitute powders that burn hotter.

The Wads provide a much better gas seal, making the powder charge more EFFICENT, as you increase the powder charge for a hunting load. Having a firewall between the powder charge and the PRB lets a hunter use a thinner patch and a tight ball, or a smaller ball and a thicker patch, for easier loading, without the worry that gas will burn the patch, and/or cut the lead ball to produce a "flyer". :hmm: :thumbsup:

Always use an over powder wad in my 50 cal. rifles. Does help in getting tighter groups.
story is still out on grandson's rifle. We oredered a 250 gr LEE REAL Bullet mould. Gonna see how that does. I don't really mind the added recoil. Doesn't bother me a bit to see him rub his shoulder. I don't feel it . lol.

I hope you will rethink this.

There is Nothing Commendable, or Manly about a grown man hurting a kid.

A light load with a .50 cal. RB is all any kid should be asked to fire. He will decide on his own when its time to start punishing his shoulder, and cheek. Helping him develop flinch, and an aversion to guns makes a gun rights ENEMY for all of us- not a future shooter, and supporter.

I still remember the jerk who handed me a 12 gauge shotgun with a high brass load in it, knowing it was a light weight, single barrel shotgun, and that the recoil would knock me back on my feet. It was the first time I ever fired anything larger than a .22 rifle from my shoulder, and the first time I fired that shotgun.

I still owe that man a knuckle sandwich- I have never forgotten him, nor what he did.

When you get old enough, you will be depending on these "kids" now to take care of you. Payback is surely going to come, so be nice. Follow the Golden Rule:

" DO unto others as you would have them do unto you".

OR, The Chinese version( Confucious) is:

" Do not do to others what you would not have them do to you".

I agree.

Shooting shouldn't be a macho thing where kids need to prove how tough they are.

It should be an enjoyable thing where learning to shoot accurately with a gun that doesn't hurt is the goal.

A .50 cal roundball is about 180 grain and is more than enough to take a deer so IMO there is no reason to go with a heavier slug. Especially one that is loaded up for power.

Hell guys get off of your boxes. Didn't mean to imply that I would hurt my grandson just to get a laugh or two. There are some adult people that I wouldn't mind watching the recoil kick their butts.
He is 16 yrs old, 6ft 1 inch tall, weighs 205 lbs. and all rock hard muscle. A & B grades. Plays football at high school until the other team runs out of players.
Oh by the way, he shoots my 30-06, 45 auto pistol all the time. Don't think that the load in his muzzle loader will even get his attention.

That CVA mountain Rifle has the hooked butt plate, designed to be shot off the upper arm, between the bicep and the Shoulder joint. Those steel plates give a nasty bite to the arm in recoil, particularly if you are using a gun that is larger than .45 caliber, and using heavy charges of powder.

Using FFFg powder gives a faster "Kick" than if you use a comparable load( one that gives you the same velocity as you got with the 3Fg powder charge you used)of FFg powder. Using Swiss powder adds to the recoil, and using any of the substitute powder causes MORE felt recoil.

Now, switch from a 180 grain RB to a 250 grain bullet, and you have added considerably to the felt recoil for no real advantage. That lead ball will pass through most deer, and it expands so much quicker and better than any bullet will that it is the far superior projectile to choose for deer hunting in that caliber.

I would not do that to any new shooter, or teen, no matter how big he is, until he FIRST learns how to hold that rifle properly, and then works up to a charge with that heavy bullet.

Your .30-06 is designed to be mounted to the Pocket of your shoulder, not out on the upper arm, where there simply is not much padding.

That .45 pistol is an early design that just happens to fit most hands, and has the hand up high so that recoil is straight back into the MEAT of the thumb, rather than into the thin web of the hand. Browning may never heard the term, " Ergodynamic", but he did it right when he designed the 1911 model Colt pistol.

That CVA was not made to allow a lot of recoil where the butt plate has to be placed. You can remove the plate, square off the butt,and put a recoil pad on the gun so that it CAN BE fired from the pocket in the shoulder. THEN, you can load that gun up with as much lead and powder as you think safe, and handle the felt recoil without bruising.

Most .50 caliber rifles, will shoot between 55 and 80 grains of FFFg powder accurately, using a Patched round Ball. You don't need any more powder than that, and you don't need a heavier bullet than that to kill most deer sized game. I recommend the use of conicals for hunting Bear, and Wild boar, if body shots are expected. For Deer, and even Elk, or Moose, or Caribou, that .50 caliber RB is superior, IMHO. :surrender: :thumbsup:

Have a rubber recoil pad added to the butt plate. ( actually helped the length for him)
Got a decent size group out of 60 Gr. of 3f BP. 70 Gr. and shot group really opened up. Believe that is due to the fast rate of twist and shallow rifling.
We will see what a conical bullet does in it with in 70 Gr.
Boy !!! Did I stir up an hornets nest with recoil and my grandson. Sure am glad that we have cyber/BP Police out here monitoring everything we do. :rotf:

The decision is always yours to make. That is why I began my post with, " I hope you reconsider...."

We have so few young people getting involved in the shooting sports that my INTEREST is that we not drive anyone interested enough to try shooting our MLers away with the kind of adolescent stuff that adults pulled when I was that "kid". If I was paid a dollar for every adult I have spoken to about guns, and heard that they were knocked on their butt when they were a kid when someone handed them a large caliber gun with a heavy load to shoot, which turned them away from shooting from that point on, I could be retired now.

We need all these kids getting involved in our sport. Otherwise, the Second Amendment Right will die from neglect, and disuse. They deserve better than what we got when we were their age. :hmm: :thumbsup:

Ok...let's put this baby to bed.
Never stated that I put a heavy charge in his rifle, nor implied that I did.
A few of the members jumped in with mercy!!!!. I would not do that to my grandson and drive him from this sport. Well neither have I. You all jumped to conclusion that I did.
Now I am thru kicking that mule.
Will post from time to time, to see how correctly everyone is answering questions. Unless the Admin. kicks me off.